I finished my 3rd run on ironman. BIG SPOILERS

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I finished my 3rd run on ironman. BIG SPOILERS

Postby Waterd103 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:55 pm

I just finished my 3rd run on the game, the first time I died on the orc stockade, because I didn't thought scribing scrolls was essential, the second one I died against a spider on the cave underground because My cleric died. Now in the third one, I finished the game.

I thought that I wasn't going to complete it based on comments, but i want to comment Why i succeeded in case someone want to finish the Ironman run. I have to say that I was surprised the game ended there, I thought I had more to do as there was at least one town i didn't even visit yet.

And definitely you don't need to have beforehand knowledge to finish the ironman run. On the other hand I played with max hp and 1 skill 18 , because of a challenge in rpg codex.

There are 2 Fights in the game that Proved to come close to lose:

1. The fire giant leader: The worst part is that I was confident because at that point it was just a stomp. , And the fight started ok, I was worried about salamanders having death arrows. Which landed on my Wizard killing it on second run, lucky before that she just dominated a few giants so I had something on my side to replace her. The rest was a battle of attrition with heals and my fighter killing everything. Now what troubles me is that every time my fighter attacked the giant he received damage, I don't know why that happened, in the end he died because I couldn't free him from Grappling. And the fight ended between My 2 clerics and the king.
I noted several times in the game my chars attacked a creature and received damage, but I look the inventory, status, and creature description and there is no hint of way. No, they don't have ice shield or fire shield. And It was annoying because I received a lot of damage I couldn't prepare for because there was no signs of it. Also It would be nice if you could cycle through enemies in the description screen as you can with your chars, It would come handy to see their equipments, spells, level, etc., having to exit and click every creature is annoying.

2. The Giant red dragon: This fight was hilarious to be honest, I had in my pack all the time 5 true resurrection on every cleric, And I have 5 scrolls of every major spell., I thought that was more than enough for whatever it comes.
I spent everything but 2 true resurrection!. The dragon doesn't die, The fighters barely touch him, and the spells he resist everything, The only thing that did damage was the Wizard, but he heals!, and he resist half the spells. I ended killing it with sonic burst! because that always hit!.
After that fight I scribed 20 of every spell! just to make sure, little would i know the game would end 3 fights later.

I see that some people do 4 knights run and similar things. I think that is impossible to ironman on the sole basis that you cant kill that dragon without a wizard Is possible?, I dont think so.
Maybe 3 knights and one cleric can, since you can Heal resurrect all day long And you can hope one day the 5% chance of hitting will go somewhere. I would be interested in knowing what i'm missing about how 4 knights can ironman or even do a regular run!.

I think the team with Best chances to Ironman is a team with 2 clerics, because you can true resurrect each other non stop. You need a wizard just for STone to Flesh and Dispell/dominate person to counter that, if not too the only chance to damage to the giant red dragon.

So 2 Clerics/1 Wizard/1 Knight/Wizard are the best team. I wasn't impressed of the Knight My STR based cleric with RIGHTEOUS MIGHT was doing almost the same damage than him.
On the other hand, I think the harder part of the game is to level up to the point where you can craft whatever you want, After that, the game is a breeze. And before that A Knight, is very powerful, I think early on is the hardest part and the moment where the knight has more chances overall.

I would maybe interested in running the game again setting myself some kind of challenge iron man. I thought about not crafting. But I wonder if its even sane to try to beat ironman without it. Specially the last fight, beating all those fights without Scrolls? I could live without crafting all the items, because you find them eventually, the lack of weapons if you choose not longsword maybe troublesome though. But in the end it seems as noted early Scribe scrolls is OP, but at the same time it seems its not possible to beat the game without it, so it doesn't seem to be a middle point.

Just in this run I did use the "campfires only work once" handicap, but as it turned out, NO campfires is completely beatable because scribe scrolls, I almost never rested during the game, and it was no problem. In fact I think in the end it was an annoying handicap than a real one, just mean i had to Scribe scrolls and heal manually with wand all day, which was kind of annoying (Btw is there a way to shortcut the scribing scroll that i'm missing to accelerate the process?)

So It would be nice to see a Challenge that maybe would make the pointless fights in the game not so pointless.
Something I thought is one use campfire, Scribe scrolls, but no clerics. So I can spam scrolls but i cant heal all the time.
Another thing would be No scribe scrolls and no craft wands. That seems impossible?
Both seems impossible actually. Even If It had max HP and 1 max stat, which probably wouldnt repeat if I do it again.

Any suggestions?
Waterd103
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I finished my 3rd run on ironman. BIG SPOILERS

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Re: I finished my 3rd run on ironman. BIG SPOILERS

Postby Waterd103 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:38 am

Ok, Reading the rest of the pages with spoilers, I found it I didn't actually finish the game, lucky i did have the game saved just to check anything if i had to, I thought the game finished when you did the main quest.

Anyway I did read what follow and proceed to do what needed this time so i kind of expected what was ahead. But whatever, I Did the fight and the fight is kind of scary and isn't at the same time. But I couldn't manage to save the two NPCS, that seems impossible, but i read is possible. Anyway, when I finished I was asked if i wanted to be the new commander, I say no just because I thought I could ask to be after.

Now what? is there anything to do? what would happen if i saved the npcs? what If i accepted to be commander?

Also If i had any doubts at red dragon, this fight proves it, I won kind of easily because 2 clerics resurrecting each other is nuts. Now I know that YOU NEED A WIZARD, otherwise this fight is impossible. Which means the only possible party is 2 Clerics/1 Wizard/ 1 Wizard/Knight. (I think 1 wizard may be better, as the knight in the later fights proved to be near useless, in this last fight it was just meatshield that died 2000 times, Meatshield that can be replaced with dominated monster). Knights are double useless late because all creatures have that uncredited Gigantic Fire shield/Ice shield.
Waterd103
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Re: I finished my 3rd run on ironman. BIG SPOILERS

Postby Tiavals » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:31 am

A few comments:

You can see the Fire/acid/negative/whatever shield a monster has from the Feats section, and usually simply from the monster info(click the race of the monster).

You must be some kind of genius for you to win it this fast and easy. I don't consider myself too poor of a player, and there were many fights I didn't win the first time, but rather had to try quite a few times. Especially winning the true final fight on the first try, that's pretty good.

I get the idea that you grinded a lot of monsters in the wilderness, how else would you have Dominate Monster in the fire giant stronghold already? Personally I find it very boring and don't do it, since a) it makes the balance of the battles kinda pointless if you have a lot more power than you're supposed to, b) it's boring in and of itself. I suppose that may be necessary for an Ironman run, since if you aren't better than the enemy in most fights(especially in the beginning), they're very tough and you'll probably lose at least one of them. Though perhaps you didn't and I misremember the amount of EXP you have by the fire giants.
Tiavals
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Re: I finished my 3rd run on ironman. BIG SPOILERS

Postby Waterd103 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:05 pm

Thanks, but I'm not a genius, I'm just a very very hardcore player. I sometimes kid that I have the world record of time invested in gaming (be either playing, thinking, reading or writing about games). Also I'm kind of powerplayer, while I don't like to use 1 max stat and max hp, which I did for the play, every time I have a decision, I analyse all and think hard "what's the best play here". So it's not kind of genius, just an enormous amount of experience in gaming, including RPG and D&D, and a very strong Play to win attitude.
For example many people don't stop to see every creature on the battlefield to see what they do, and being able to cycle between the enemy units as you can with your chars would have helped A LOT.
But that was important because I could see what threat could each represent.

I get the idea that you grinded a lot of monsters in the wilderness, how else would you have Dominate Monster in the fire giant stronghold already?

I turned off both random encounters and re spawn. So you misremember the amount of XP since if i remember correctly Jezabeth was level 18 by that point, Fwiw, one of my clerics where like 3 levels behind. Since it was the crafter of my team, Jezabeth only crafted Scrolls and wands. While I did do though is clear every dungeon DRY.

Also, A few things that helped me win fights.
a) Two clerics is the nuts, Heal each other, Resurrect each other, it's just the nuts. Against the red dragon I think I did use 12 True resurrections!
b) Dominate Monster is broken, Once you have that you are invincible. Incidentally I learned that in the first cRPG I played, Darksun, where you get it at level 3! and target 5 monsters!
c) All my team had the feat Quick draw, and rings of every type. and different weapons, and both cloaks of displacement and Resistance +5. That's why I could prepare them for whatever battle without knowing beforehand what was coming. And it proved Amazingly good. At first I thought about having armors too different, but other than fortification, the rest seems bad, maybe I was wrong. the spell resistance looks crappy, but I'm not sure it is, maybe I'm miscalculating something the SR is low and most threats come from very high level wizards anyway.
d) If you have a space to run, and someone is dead, run with a cleric and HEAL or RESURRECT, the char appears far from the remaining units, it gives you time to rebuff heal, etc.
e) I heard about the final fight, SO I knew beforehand what was coming and did a plan accordingly, I just found in the forums how to beat it, even if its not surprise, dominate monster. So I did that, I hid one cleric, and Had the other cleric and fighter doing meat shield in the entrance, while Jezabeth dominated everything. If someone died I would just resurrect (And I did resurrect LOTS OF TIMES)
Since it resurrect near your char, it resurrects out of danger, and can go back. Just dominate everything, again and again and again and again, the hard thing is that Jezabeth dies a lot and dominate monster is a full time cast, so it needs to be in the front of AOE and not die, the point is that you eventually do it, I revived Jezabeth a lot of times but eventually I dominated every creature except the golems, which I killed with Acid. The point is Dominate monster is the most powerful spell in the game!. So once you have 2 clerics with true resurrection, and dominate monster, you just can't lose unless you get surrounded, if that fight you get surrounded it would be impossible but you have many places to hide and a narrow choke point.
f) In the end I had problems until I could craft, crafting makes your chars walk over everything, by the time craft doesn't make the difference you have True resurrection clerics and Dominate monster.

since if you aren't better than the enemy in most fights(especially in the beginning)

I got excited on the orc stockade on my first run because it seemed the game was nightmare and I died, The answer to everything is scribe scrolls, it makes your team OP, especially the spellcasters. With scribe scrolls, losing is just impossible. The only way to lose is to have one cleric and it randomly dies. That's how I did lose the 2nd run. have 2 clerics, and there is no way to lose, maybe you run out of gold to raise dead. I can see how early on may be the hardest part in the game. Because you may run out of gold to raise dead. Or before you get level-5 cleric magic if you don't know about NPC clerics (I didn't).

Have in mind I played with 1 Max stat and MAX HP, I think that made the early game a lot easier too. Anyway, for sure if it's hard it's early on. I'm tempted in trying a run without max hp and 1 max stat and see what happens, but I think scribe scrolls would make the team still broken, and without scribe scrolls the game seems impossible, there seems to be no middle point.

But I hear suggestions!
Waterd103
Marilith (CR 17)
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Re: I finished my 3rd run on ironman. BIG SPOILERS

Postby Tiavals » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:23 pm

Well, in any case, you are quite good at the game. :)

As for the scribe scrolls, as I understand it, this is being changed in KOTC2. There won't be any scribing(or crafting at all for that matter), which certainly rectifies this "fault" in the game.

Maybe you might want to play the game without Ironman mode, but also without scribing scrolls. Might be quite a different experience. Oh, and no running back to resting places. Maybe use them just once.(though you were already doing that?)
Tiavals
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Re: I finished my 3rd run on ironman. BIG SPOILERS

Postby Waterd103 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:36 pm

Yes, I was doing that, but it was pointless because scribing scrolls, Again, without scribing scrolls, I dont even know if its possible to beat the game in ironman! I think I will try, for the sake of it, but i know it will fail.
But I guess I will do one use fireplaces. and then with no scribing scrolls its gonna be hell.
I guess I could try no crafting whatsoever? or just not scribing scrolls?
Waterd103
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Re: I finished my 3rd run on ironman. BIG SPOILERS

Postby Waterd103 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:49 pm

I finished my review and I posted it on Sirlin.net. I know my english isn't good and that I'm not a great writer, but I'm an user of Sirlin.net for years and people there tend to like my reviews.
So I post the link here in case someone is interested in commenting or seeing it.
http://www.fantasystrike.com/forums/index.php?threads/knights-of-the-chalice.4883/#post-147819

Just in case you want to compare there is a review of mine about Darksun Shattered Lands
http://www.fantasystrike.com/forums/index.php?threads/darksun-shattered-lands-review.1078/

Also if you want to know a little what scores mean to me. There doesn't exist any game I can give a 10, and so far I never gave a 9 (but i'm sure some games of different genre than RPG would get that)
My favorite Tactical RPG is Final fantasy tactics, and while I never reviewed it, I think I would give it an 8 or a 7. Most modern rpgs like Dragon age, I would give them a 2-4 overall.
Waterd103
Marilith (CR 17)
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Re: I finished my 3rd run on ironman. BIG SPOILERS

Postby Tiavals » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:32 pm

I must say I'm quite surprised at how low you figure KOTC gameplay to be. To me, it is the best part in the game. With so many choices to do each round, that are quite different, the fighting is actually fun, not a chore as in most games.

I suppose it might be because you played it on Ironman, and as such you probably played with the attitude of "winning, not funning". I prefer to fight the battles in a way I find interesting and fun, as opposed to simple mathematical superiority. Though I can understand the feeling of playing with what seems most efficient. Few things grind my gears more than having 10 different options to do in a fight, but 9 of them being simply inferior to a single action, so there's no point in choosing the other ones.

Or maybe it's just your seemingly high standards. :D

Out of curiosity, what is your favourite cRPG and why?
Tiavals
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Re: I finished my 3rd run on ironman. BIG SPOILERS

Postby Waterd103 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:04 pm

Depends on what you mean with cRPG.
In what I define as cRPG, Is Final fantasy tactics. (and would follow very similar games like Fire emblem series and Battle for wesnoth)
But if you mean Just Western.
I guess its a close call between Darksun: Shattered lands and Temple of elemental evil.
( I would guess Heroes of might and magic qualify more as a 4x game and XCOM is a ......simulator? it feels very RPG to me but I may see why people dont think it is)

So I will answer for the 3 games.
Final fantasy tactics every fight has a meaning in the plot, every fight feels important.
But the best part about final fantasy tactics is that every fight is a new different kind of threat a different element added. And as you level up your chars, your chars abilities change drastically. People say is fun to build your party at the start, create chars. Final fantasy Tactics keep that feeling during the whole game. As you can make your knight a wizard the next battle, etc.

With every fight being important in plot, every fight has a new element added to it, what worked in the last fight it will not work in the next because your chars and opponents change completely. Fighters weren't boring and there was a lot of space to try things and play. I think the concept is amazing.
On the downside, it allows grinding (which you can avoid to certain point), I didn't like the interface (RPGS on Pad sucks) there were TOO much information to process and the worst part is that as the story progressed imbalanced chars joined your team, and the game starts to become easier and bland since those chars are very limited on what they can do.
There are Other small flaws but I would get too deep into it.
Overall The game is amazing in that regard.

Darksun shattered lands, well you can see my review there but in a summary: Basically it doesn't have grinding imo, it has use of different situations. And you need to use different tools to solve different problems. The story is amazingly well told and the atmosphere is great.
The only (HUGE HUGE) downside of the game is that it's full of overpowered stuff that ruins the game (Mass domination at level 3 char, Double wielding and Half giants are too good, Multiclassing is brutally good) and underpowered stats (intelligence is useless stats, STR scale in weird ways, charisma has no purpose).
Add to that that there is infinite rest no penalty type.
Also it has prebuffing which I HATE WITH MY SOUL.
Basically in darksun for a new player, he may find too many Overpowered or underpowered things, which is annoying. (there are also bugged spells that don't work too)
So basically the game makes you to restrict yourself to choose good options but not awesome options. At rest, but not rest too much. When the player is creating the rules, it doesn't feel good to accomplish challenges, and that's what you have to do in darksun to have any challenge at all.
Basically i think Darksun is a fun game to rerun, but its not great to play the first time.

Temple of elemental evil has the same problem than darksun, and at this point I only runned TOEE once because I can't find a way to restrict resting so the game is challenging. But the combat system is awesome.
If I would make a review of TOEE it would be similar to KOTC. There is an awesome engine for a great game, but there is no story and no game!. (I think I like KOTC more than TOEE, making KOTC probably the second best Party rpg, where you walk in the world, instead of being teleported a la Fire emblem, imo)

Also it also has the problem of darksun, I found many things to be broken, I particularly found summons were too good, I went through all the game summon armies of elementals, and nothing else really. (Pretty similar to cleric summons in icewind dale, you can just summon things, and watch them destroy everything).

EDIT: Oh, if Roguelikes count then ADOM its great too. I really love the concept of roguelikes, except that I don't understand why its only one guy, A roguelike with a 4+ man party and tactical combat would be amazing. I don't understand why that game hasn't been done yet.
Last edited by Waterd103 on Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Waterd103
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Re: I finished my 3rd run on ironman. BIG SPOILERS

Postby Tiavals » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:14 pm

Thanks. It seems you like tactical RPGs, since you didn't mention any other RPG. :)

What do you think about Dark Sun 2? Or Icewind Dale, Baldur's Gate or Planescape: Torment? Are their tactical portions too poorly done?
You've probably never heard of Spirit Engine 2, but I never pass an opportunity to advertise it. Probably not your cup of tea, but who knows. Use google to find it.
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