Spider cave, shouldn't be easier? (early game spoilers)

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Spider cave, shouldn't be easier? (early game spoilers)

Postby Waterd103 » Tue May 15, 2012 9:38 pm

As I said many times, this is the hardest fight in the game.
There is only 3 ways to solve this fight A) Grind in weird ways until you are level 5, B) if you have map encounters on, grind them until you are level 5 C) Reload until you get lucky.

Is there any reason (From a design point of view) to keep this fight as is, considering that?

In my opinion this fight should be lowered for level 4 characters or adding more monsters before this fight so level 5 is guaranteed.
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Spider cave, shouldn't be easier? (early game spoilers)

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Re: Spider cave, shouldn't be easier? (early game spoilers)

Postby BlueSalamander » Thu May 17, 2012 2:05 pm

Mmm, who said you had to do it at level 4? You could do it after the orc fortress.
Design-wise I think it's fun to try (reload) this battle until you get lucky or you find a tactic that works better.
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Re: Spider cave, shouldn't be easier? (early game spoilers)

Postby Waterd103 » Fri May 18, 2012 3:15 am

After the orc fortress the whole cave is too easy. And if you follow dialog, I would say plot wise spider cave more likely come before orc fortress.

Design-wise I think it's fun to try (reload) this battle until you get lucky or you find a tactic that works better.

I can't say here anything that I didn't say already, except you don't need to be lucky for basically the rest of the game, there is only 2 spots that I think you need luck to overcome that part, that is the spider cave (if you go in level 4), and the final of the demo.
Id disagree that design-wise that's fun. At least the lucky part.

The part of a tactic that works better is ok. yet despite all time i invested in this game, I still can't find a solid tactic for this fight at level 4 that have a high chance of success. Something I did for almost every other fight in this game. yet I can't with this one. At least with reasonable not op chars (as you may know, I reroll any a 85+ character).
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Re: Spider cave, shouldn't be easier? (early game spoilers)

Postby BlueSalamander » Sun May 20, 2012 11:18 am

How would you go about adjusting this encounter, then? Reduced HP for the Spider Queen?
Is it not possible to reach level 5 just by finishing the village Lizardmen, the initial part of the Orc Fortress, and the initial part of the Spider caves?
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Re: Spider cave, shouldn't be easier? (early game spoilers)

Postby Waterd103 » Sun May 20, 2012 1:04 pm

Oh, yes you can do that, in fact that's what I do in my runs now. I go to the fortress until I reach level 5, then I go to the spider cave and with level 5 it's a whole other story, still a very hard fight, but with a solid plan you can come through it most of the time.

For a first player or not so first but close to first player, I've seen complaints and I understand them. Because, unless you are rerunning the game and really playing to maximize your chances of winning, you are not going to do that weird path. Nor is even suggested or clued in anyway to do so.

How would I adjust this encounter? well one way could be...just giving exp before it, somewhere somehow (or creatures) to reach level 5.

Adjusting for level 4? I don't have the answer. Maybe put in reach to get a spiderweb cloak? That doesn't seem great. I don't know, I could think about it. But I don't know the best way the do it.
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Re: Spider cave, shouldn't be easier? (early game spoilers)

Postby quasimodo » Sun May 20, 2012 8:27 pm

I really like the spider cave as it is. It is probably my favorite encounter because it is so difficult at a low level. I go for it as soon as my mage gets the fireball spell. (I've never been able to do it without fireball). It may take a few tries, but that's why I like it.
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Re: Spider cave, shouldn't be easier? (early game spoilers)

Postby Waterd103 » Mon May 21, 2012 4:35 pm

Yes with fireball is doable, as I said as level 5, the encounter is ok. Is at level 4 that is just the nuts. Level 4 spidercave (the level you will reach if you naturally go with the flow of the story of the game) is HARDER than the final battle at level 20. That should tell something is wrong. In fact level 5 with Crafting the fight is probably a joke (What isn't with crafting). I don't even know though if it would be an easy fight with crafting at level 4!!!!! (maybe it is, not sure, didn't try, but for sure spider cave with crafting at level 4 is harder than final fight with crafting at level 20)

My conclusion is that to me there is a problem there.

However, I don't suggest you to do anything with it. Just that if another batch of players come (and hopefully so as you deserve it, because this game is too good for a an almost 1 man work), if they complain about this fight, consider doing something about it.
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Re: Spider cave, shouldn't be easier? (early game spoilers)

Postby quasimodo » Tue May 22, 2012 1:43 am

I suppose it is a matter of taste. I like to find impossible fights and come back try again as my characters level up.
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Re: Spider cave, shouldn't be easier? (early game spoilers)

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Tue May 22, 2012 12:46 pm

Spidercave is doable at lvl4 mainly with soundbursts/sleep + coup de grace and the missile wand for bringing down the queen. Probably takes a few tries but it's nowhere near as hard as you make it sound.

Of course you have to gamble at the beginning in the castle so you can afford the missile wand, sleep wand etc. Because you will need many sleeps. Best to have 2 wizards and/or 2 clerics.
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Re: Spider cave, shouldn't be easier? (early game spoilers)

Postby BlueSalamander » Wed May 23, 2012 7:02 am

My conclusion is that to me there is a problem there.

Mm, maybe there should be another down stairway to continue without fighting the Queen. You could finish the rest of the caves and then do that fight last.

What I did last time was to have a character shoot a slaying arrow at the Queen. I think you have three arrows so you get three chances. You can use a fighter to do that or a wizard with True Strike. For the other spiders you can confuse them with the wand you get in the level, use sleep, sound burst, and normal attacks with a magic weapon.
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