A church or a priest to restore lowered stats or sell scroll

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Re: A church or a priest to restore lowered stats or sell scroll

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:04 pm

Waterd103 wrote:Personally I would prefer if cleric wasn't needed in the party.

That would be a bit weird in a game with only 3 classes, one of them being cleric.

I don't say autoheal and all that. But there should be other ways, be NPC,

There are NPC clerics, which accounts for *other ways* I presume. Your point?

and why not potions etc. I agree they should be more expensive, harder to get. But the option should be there.

Potions, especially a large variety of them, can easily kill all challenge a game could possibly have. See NWN2. How can there be any challenge left in a game with unlimited potions of full heal? In a game where even some of the best arcane buffs( heroism, mirror image, improved invis etc) are available in potion form?
Of course you want to replace a cleric with healing items a la BG2. In BG2 you could do anything a cleric could do with potions and scrolls and wands, even more. Including resurrection of the dead. Certainly there wasn't any need for a cleric in BG2 but whether the game was better for it is debatable.
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Re: A church or a priest to restore lowered stats or sell scroll

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Re: A church or a priest to restore lowered stats or sell scroll

Postby Waterd103 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:35 pm

My point is that you can't depend on NPC clerics. I know because as you may find I really try to create challenges for myself. I know that not having a cleric is just autofail, regardless of if you use the NPC clerics or not. You can though finish the game in even ironman mode without a knight no problem, and a wizard if you do not consider the final final fight needed to finish the game. Yet, good luck getting to Taneliz Alive without a cleric. (unless you have random encounters on, and overgrind), much less finishing the game in ironman.

Potions can be implemented and be reasonable, You can make it scarce enough and/or costly enough to get.

How can there be any challenge left in a game with unlimited potions of full heal?

I'm surprised that challenge is important. I think KOTC lack challenge for the most part with unlimited fireplaces and crafting (which was one of the main reasons I was so harsh in my initial review), yet most people do not seem to complain, I just guess that challenge is not an important factor for most people that play RPG.
I mean infinite heal (fireplaces) + Infinite heal (Create Wand, scribe scroll) there is challenge, but suddenly if we have potions, we do not? That does not logically follow.
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Re: A church or a priest to restore lowered stats or sell scroll

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:30 am

Waterd103 wrote:My point is that you can't depend o NPC clerics. I know because as you may find I really try to create challenges for myself. I know that not having a cleric is just autofail, regardless of if you use the NPC clerics or not. You can through finish the game in even ironman mode without a knight no problem, and a wizard if you do not consider the final final fight needed to finish the game. Yet, good luck getting to Taneliz Alive without a cleric. (unless you have random encounters on, and overgrind), much less finishing the game in ironman.
Potions can be implemented and be reasonable, You can make it scarce enough and/or costly enough to get.

You said it yourself: you'd prefer it if you hadn't to take a cleric into your party. That means potions/other items had to replace the cleric entirely. Which means, said potions couldn't be *scarce* or *costly*.
Besides, if I could just take wizards into my party because I no longer need a cleric for healing with all the potions doing this job just fine, would the game become more challenging?

Waterd103 wrote:I mean infinite heal (fireplaces) + Infinite heal (Create Wand, scribe scroll) there is challenge, but suddenly if we have potions, we do not? That do not logical follow.

You have of course a point, in that unlimited resting and wands/scrolls of healing don't increase the challenge either. However, there's still some difference to the *potions for everyone* approach.
1) You need to spend the feats craft wand/scribe scroll.
2) You need to pay XP for crafting the items
3) You need a CLERIC to use those items, as opposed to another wizard with a bundle of potions for healing

Plus, when I referred to NWN2 I didn't mean healing potions excusively. After all, if you want to replace the role of a cleric with potions you will need more than regular healing. (remove blindness, remove negative levels, restoration etc)
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Re: A church or a priest to restore lowered stats or sell scroll

Postby Waterd103 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:48 am

Besides, if I could just take wizards into my party because I no longer need a cleric for healing with all the potions doing this job just fine, would the game become more challenging?

Clearly the cleric shouldn't be such a strong healer. Cleric in KOTC is beyond powerfull, as stated, you quickly reach a point where you are just unkillabe because of those clerics.
That is not the problem though, the problem is that the cleric, the healing cleric , is at least boring. No matter what team in KOTC I think it's optimal (for the sake of minimizing chances of dying) to have a Heal bot. I always had a Cleric doing Summon elemental first round, and then proceed to only cast heal/resurrection/Cure some bad thing every round. That's it. I find that quite boring to be honest. So I would say the game would become more interesting if you have a character that is doing something different. I won't say though if the game will become more or less challenging, because that is defined by a lot of numbers that, since potions do no actually exist in practice or theory, we don't know, without those numbers is just impossible to determine the answer to that question.

***
Potions would also have a cost, they would cost money.
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Re: A church or a priest to restore lowered stats or sell scroll

Postby Dorateen » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:37 pm

I made a dwarven battle cleric in KoTC. That was awesome.

Especially casting Righteous Might and saving the party in the gnoll pit trap battle.

Harumph!
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