Demo v1.32, Full v1.32

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Re: Demo v1.28, Full v1.28

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:41 pm

In my opinion you should try to get the game on Steam. Look at the recent success of those other Indies, Dungeons of Dredmor (http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=61844) and Chtulhu saves the World.
Selling, I dunno, 50.000 copies for 3 bucks each wouldn't really harm you. You just have to make sure that the game is advertized as using the 3.5 DnD OGL and it will sell because of being DnD alone. Plus, KotC is better than Dungeons of Dredmor in the first place. Do it, bro. With a bit of luck (and some marketing efforts on the Codex, RPGWatch, Gamebanshee) you might get enough money to enter full-dev mode for KotC2.

ps: And I want KotC2. I want it NOW.
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Re: Demo v1.28, Full v1.28

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Re: Demo v1.28, Full v1.28

Postby Void1984 » Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:19 am

I think sth steam is a really bad idea.
2. KotC is worth more then $3 and other RPGs are selling there for $30.
1. Steam forces the program to use very obtrusive DRM.
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Re: Demo v1.28, Full v1.28

Postby BlueSalamander » Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:28 pm

VentilatorOfDoom wrote:Selling, I dunno, 50.000 copies for 3 bucks each wouldn't really harm you
You make a persuasive argument, but what games with a developer profit margin of $3 have sold 50,000 copies on Steam? Any links?
it will sell because of being DnD alone
But it's forbidden to advertise a product that uses the OGL as a DnD product.
Void1984 wrote:How can I get the update (from 1.27)?
Your username, password and download link are in the email you received when you bought the game. If you have lost it, please email enquiries@heroicfantasygames.com and I will send the details to you again.
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
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Re: Demo v1.28, Full v1.28

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:27 pm

BlueSalamander wrote:You make a persuasive argument, but what games with a developer profit margin of $3 have sold 50,000 copies on Steam? Any links?

The numbers ($3 and 50.000) were only examples. One could say I just pulled them out of my $#!@. I only know that Dungeons of Dredmor apparently had far more success than anticipated on Steam.
http://beubo.com/2011/07/dungeons-of-dredmor-getting-major-patch-this-week/
The developer was apparently excited:
http://www.gaslampgames.com/2011/07/13/so-uh-hi-there/

They did sell for $5.99 or $4.99. How many copies? I don't know. 1000? 2000? 5000? Or even more? I'd assume that being somewhere on the top of the Steam charts for days implies having sold more than 20 copies.
Of course those Dungeons of Dredmore guys did also some marketing campaign before release. Interviews, previews etc on gaming sites that cover RPGs.

]But it's forbidden to advertise a product that uses the OGL as a DnD product.

Is it forbidden to mention that the game uses the 3.5 DnD OGL? Something like "KotC is based on the 3.5 DnD Open Game License". If yes, one would have to find a way to mention that and make people understand that it's DnD without using the words DnD.

Even NWN2 was re-released on Steam (years after the original release) with great success. (also topping the charts several times)
The point is, it's a platform where you can reach a lot of people who would otherwise never hear of your game. Make it cheap and voila, the buying decision is made easily. Every $ you make this way is a $ you wouldn't have made otherwise. That's how I see it.

As for the DRM, well, I assume that Steam users (the target audience here) are kinda used to it. So, no harm done.
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Re: Demo v1.28, Full v1.28

Postby BlueSalamander » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:30 pm

Thanks for the links. I had a look on Google too but couldn't find sales data, nevermind. According to this Steam takes between 30% and 40%. Sure, even 5,000 sales at $3 per unit would be very good, but it wouldn't be earth shattering. There is a discussion of Steam on the forum of Spiderweb Software there. For the time being, I would rather play around with Google advertising and perhaps reduce the price of the game (I can do that without Steam, after all). I'm playing through the game now and making some extra fixes.
Is it forbidden to mention that the game uses the 3.5 DnD OGL? Something like "KotC is based on the 3.5 DnD Open Game License". If yes, one would have to find a way to mention that and make people understand that it's DnD without using the words DnD.
I cannot mention the word DnD even as part of OGL. The best I can think of, that is allowed (as far as I know), is the description I made on the website:
'Knights of the Chalice is a PC computer role-playing game (CRPG) for Windows loosely based upon the Open Game Licence 3.5 (OGL), the set of rules at the root of the popular pen-and-paper role-playing game Dungeons & Dragons Edition 3.5, made by Wizards of the Coast.'
Make it cheap and voila, the buying decision is made easily. Every $ you make this way is a $ you wouldn't have made otherwise. That's how I see it.
At the same time, one who would have been looking for the game and be willing to pay £15 or £10, is just going to get the game for $5 because that's what it would be priced on Steam. 1 sale at £15 equals 8 sales at $3.
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
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Re: Demo v1.28, Full v1.28

Postby screeg » Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:06 pm

I have tried to get BS to see the wisdom of opening up KotC to other venues of digital distribution, but he is stubborn! :P

Thing is, no one shares their sales data and no one is allowed to share the % cut which Steam takes. I too have heard it is in the 30-40% range. What you have to think is that at some point revenue from KotC is going to approach zero. When game 2 is released you will have an opportunity to push game 1, for several months at least. After that, you might as well take what you can get on Steam, which anecdotally could be a frickin' load of cash. I'm not talking about selling out for a few hundred bucks here.

There are two things you have to realize about getting your games on Steam:

1. They reach a massive audience, hundreds of thousands of people who never in their entire lives will be exposed to KotC. As far as I can tell, you have zero in the way of advertising and promotion. Those are not lost sales at $20 a pop, those are new customers you can't reach otherwise. All this promotion and exposure is what you get in return for lost per unit revenue.
2. People buy five dollar games, and never play them! It's a whole different sales mentality. It's not I like this game and I'm willing to pay $5.00 for it, it's It's on sale right now for only $5.00. I might not play it for three more months (or ever), but it's so cheap I might as well add it to my Steam list. I too have read Jeff Vogel's opinion on Steam and disagree with him completely. He's been doing the same thing for twenty years and I'm glad if it works for him, but he's not looking dispassionately at the business model. He's too attached to putting emotional value on his work instead of looking strictly at the bottom line.

Actually there was one game which shared it's sales on Steam and that was Terraria. If memory serves they sold 350,000 copies in the first month on Steam at $10 each. That was an incomplete (alpha) game in development for a total of five months. That's a wild success story, but the fact is people who've tried KotC like it a lot and talk it up. If people start talking it up on the Steam forums I'd be surprised if you didn't sell 10,000 copies at $5.00 in short order. And you have the great demo too, which was a smart move. After game 2 has been out for a few months I'd say you've got nothing to lose trying something new with KotC1.
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Re: Demo v1.28, Full v1.28

Postby screeg » Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:54 pm

Addendum: Jeff Vogel's Avadon to be released on Steam.
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Re: Demo v1.29, Full v1.29

Postby BlueSalamander » Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:11 pm

Version 1.29 is now available, details are there http://www.heroicfantasygames.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78#p736.

Thanks screeg. Your post makes sense.

The three battles I've found most difficult while playing:
- Final battle at the gate (with the demon Maphistor).
- Council of the Slaver Lords (with the commander of the guards)
- Battle against Frost Giants and an Iron Golem in a large room after setting off the alarm.

I will post screenshots later. Maybe I'll need to make another update to fix infrequent changes in the music tempo. So far I have no clue what causes this.

Avadon looks great.
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
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Re: Demo v1.30, Full v1.30

Postby BlueSalamander » Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:45 pm

Right, I did some experiments and found a fix for the music (the solution being to call the Stop() music function two times rather than just once :x).
Version 1.30 is now available for download.

That concludes the latest round of updates. Apart from adding new content I don't know what I could do to make the game better now.
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
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Re: Demo v1.30, Full v1.30

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:54 pm

Well, adding new content doesn't sound so bad.
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