Bought the game, loving it, and a pile of thoughts

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Re: Bought the game, loving it, and a pile of thoughts

Postby xalles » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:44 am

(I have more post-1.07 comments on bottom of the previous page.)

59) I've noticed with the new auto-turn feature on, doing a five-foot step then making more than one but not all of my attacks (by left-clicking on a target) will auto-end the turn with attacks left unused, even if other enemies are in range. I've only lost attacks when a five-foot step is involved and only when the initial target dies. Also, I've only lost melee attacks, never ranged. I'm thinking you might have intended things to work this way, left-click-attacking with auto-end turn on, but losing usable attacks is still rough. Note that this is almost the opposite problem as I had before auto-end turn was working, but this new problem is much more rare. And otherwise the auto-end turn feature is awesome.

Here's an example of this happening. (It was way harder coming up with an example of this than some of my other examples, which is a sign of how rarely it happens.)
i) Beginning of Luminara's turn. She has three attacks and does not have Cleave. I've lost attacks with Cleave guys too, but not having Cleave makes this example easier to show.
ii) Five-foot step. Here I'm using it before attacking, but I've lost attacks if I use the five-foot step between attacks also.
iii) First attack. Note that there are three orcs adjacent to her now. Two of them are about to die.
iv) Second attack. The first attack was a one-hit kill.
v) After the second attack. The second attack was a one-hit kill also, and then Luminara's turn auto-ended with one attack unused and another orc in range to use it on. (Note in the combat log that some other orc took his turn just after she killed the second orc above.)

60) Interface: May want to ask "are you sure?" when the player clicks start new game on the main menu if there is already a game in progress. I clicked new game accidentally once and was surprised i couldn't return to my previous game after backing out of the new game setup.

61) Interface: This screen, reached by clicking a character's size ("MEDIUM" in this case) on her character sheet, doesn't make sense to me in the context of the game. Clicking on "SIZE:" next to that on the sheet leads to the "size" help page, which is more useful. Unless "base size index" means something I don't understand, I think the readout in the screenshot should show the appropriate AC/attack roll bonus the character gets for its size, instead.

62) Interface: I think the quest log could be improved by having a list of quest names down one side and printing only the text for a given quest in the body if a player selects the quest's name. You could use your larger font for the names and your smaller font for the text body.

Here's a simple mockup of what I'm describing. That scrollbar in the middle could go on either side of the quest name list.

With quest parts seeming to be in a tree structure, you could even make the name list represent that, with it ending up looking something like this.

Speaking of the quest log scrollbar, I think a dragable position indicator on the bar could be useful in browsing the text (the docs' scrollbar has this).
Last edited by xalles on Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Bought the game, loving it, and a pile of thoughts

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Re: Bought the game, loving it, and a pile of thoughts

Postby xalles » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:43 am

Note that all the files in this post are huge spoilers.

63) I can only CTRL-S and CTRL-L with the left CTRL key and not the right one.

64) Bugs/Weirdness: When I killed *huge end-game (I think) spoilers* Tyranixxus underneath Vanicia, the attached message.rar appeared, and non-battle music started playing. Then weird stuff happened. I had minimized the game to take that screenshot (or more precisely I think I clicked outside the window and it minimized itself, as it usually does). Also, you barely can see there's another enemy still alive at the bottom of the shot (General Kaspar) and I had confused him (with the level-4 spell). Anyway after I restored the window and closed out of the message, the non-battle music kept playing, but the battle kept going, sort of. None of my guys could do melee or ranged attacks (the mouse cursor would only show the red cancel sign no matter where I moved it, not melee/ranged/view). That general guy and my fire elemental I had summoned kept attacking normally. I ended up finishing the general off with spells. Once I did, I got EXP and the battle ended normally.

Elinor died a couple times in this fight the time that I beat it, once to a slaying arrow I think, and once to Greater Disintegrate courtesy of Big Red. I brought her back with True Resurrection both times, and each time, IIRC, Elinor was still hasted from a spell cast on her before she died the first time. Seems weird that dead characters would keep buffs on resurrection.

Spectacular fight BTW, only other thing that seemed odd is toward the end Big Red kept trying to dispel my guys' buffs (and dispel confused enemies) and five-foot stepping away, instead of using crazy level-9 spells or 26d10 breath like he had in the beginning (actually I'm not sure if I ever saw him use the breath). Took a few tries just to get that far, however. The first part of the fight is awesome, where all the wizards and clerics buff up all the melee guys, and Big Red, and swarm you like crazy.

I've attached two saves just in case: one just before this fight, and one just after. It's a shame the save game really didn't save much of the loot from this fight (the screen was full of treasure boxes). I have another save (below) where I got the good stuff.

65) Interface: In the save game list, the times should list "42:05" instead of "42:5" (for example) just before "HRS".

66) Bug: In this file, Luminara has an "Obsidian Shield" I won from the above fight. It comes with Fortification II and +3 Enhancement and *spoiler* 3 AC built-in. If Luminara further enchants the shield to have +5 enhancement, she can't upgrade the Fortification bonus to III ("total bonus would exceed 10"), but she can apply the same upgrades in the reverse order. (She can also do: +4, Fort III, +5.) The enchants should work together, since each enchant requires +5 magic.

Edit: I just noticed also in this file that the two people I rescued after fighting Big Red are just standing there.
Attachments
message.rar
(192.41 KiB) Downloaded 104 times
before.rar
(255.53 KiB) Downloaded 116 times
after.rar
(255.81 KiB) Downloaded 121 times
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Re: Bought the game, loving it, and a pile of thoughts

Postby xalles » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:46 am

With 1.08, I tested the auto-turn losing attacks problem out in good ol' Mountain Pass and I'm pretty sure it's working fine now. At this point in the game I'm not fighting too many battles but instead gearing up for one in particular. I'll simply say that it involves a certain ambassador and it reminds me of the end of the first episode of the original Doom, where you win the game only to go to a dark room full of monsters to die a horrible death.

Here's a couple more comments in the meantime.

67) There's one bug I've come across probably less than five times in 40-50 hours of play, but I haven't been able to isolate it. What happens, oh so rarely, is that one of my guys will get a weird number of attacks (usually less than normal). IIRC, it always happened near the beginning of a fight, and only once during that fight.

Two instances I can remember well both happened in the Tower (which I played through under 1.07). Each time, Elinor was the first character in the entire fight to get her turn, and each time she went to left-click attack (level 20 with two-weapon fighting) and got "ATTACK 01/01" on the top of the screen, one attack only on the target. (This sort of thing can happen with the spell Slow but that wasn't the case here.) Both times I tried to get a screenshot of it but wasn't fast enough. Reloading and fighting the same fights over again, and getting Elinor to get the first turn, did not reproduce the bug.

Tonight while wandering the map I caught this screen, which shows very similar behavior to the bug I described above. Notably here, however, Hrothgar actually got 4 attacks like he should have (with a bow named Blinding Light). Also, Luminara attacked first in this battle IIRC (she's standing next to the troll already).

Note that I've used the auto-end turn feature ever since it was put in the game, but I can't remember if I encountered this bug before then. The bug could very well be related to the issues that you were having with this feature, that otherwise seems to work great from my cursory testing.

If I had to take another shot in the dark, I'd say the bug might be related to quicksaving/quickloading. I do CTRL-S and CTRL-L a lot when I'm roaming around a dungeon and continue to move around/get into fights/etc. while the file is reading/writing. (I did this a lot in the Tower.)

I also minimize and restore the game a lot and which seemed to cause the bug in 64) above.

This attack bug may even be somehow related to the House of Jewels crash, since they both are very hard to reproduce, and both have to do with the first attack of a fight.

I'm just speculating here, and I don't want to lead you on a wild goose chase, but I wanted to mention this bug in case it pops up again. Here's the 1.07 version of the save just before I entered the Tower, (*spoilers* note I beat the game before this) and a 1.08 save close in time to the screen I took above.

68) Interface: Right-clicking on "forge a weapon or armor" in the crafting menu (via inventory) leads to info about the "crafting weapons and armor" feat, not the forging feat.

69) Bug: Two of the babaus (but not the other two), in the fight *spoiler* north of the one with Tyranixxus, saved vs. Dominate Undead rather than giving "NOT UNDEAD" error, when I cast it on most of the enemies in that fight. (BTW, I found this fight almost impossible to win. Great fight.) The "after" save in my last post is in place for this fight.

70) Interface: Whereas forging 100 arrows closing the forge window isn't too bad since you can buy them ad infinitum at shops, crafting one slaying arrow at a time is a chore when you're making a bunch (3 clicks per arrow). IMO making slaying/sleeping arrows shouldn't close the craft wondrous items window. One downside to not closing the window is that it'd be hard to tell how many arrows you've made so far, but I think this is better than all those clicks.
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Re: Bought the game, loving it, and a pile of thoughts

Postby xalles » Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:51 pm

After more than 50 hours, I think I've done everything in the full version of the game. I'm probably gonna play the demo next, since I hear it's fun. ;) I may also try a variant in the full version like four-wizards or no-crafting, though probably take a break first.

Just for kicks, here's a RAR containing a set of notes I took during my playthrough of the game, as well as my last save. Also included in the attached RAR are some more screens of 71 and 72 below. They are all big spoilers, but the text file especially spoils the entire game, and is sure to be very boring, so read at your own risk.

I'll mention that in one of my attempts at a certain tough fight I noticed the 67 bug above again with Elinor, this time toward the end of the fight. She was hasted with two weapons and all the two-weapon feats and got "ATTACK 01/03", "ATTACK 02/03", "ATTACK 03/03", but then it went "ATTACK 04/09", "ATTACK 05/09", ..., "ATTACK 09/09" as expected (i.e. she got all 9 attacks). So at worst it seems this rare bug is simply a display error now.

71) Casting a full-round spell in Darkness didn't auto-end the turn. The character didn't have any other free actions available either, like Quick Draw. Not being able to five-foot move in Darkness is normal right? I figured it works the same as blind (which doesn't allow five-foot moves).

I tested Entangle and Web, and found that Entangled and Stuck conditions, while they prevent five-foot moves, they don't cause the turn to auto-end after casting a full-round spell. Same thing in tall grass.

72) Bug?: I noticed that being near a sleeping dominated enemy added "wake someone up" to the combat menu, but I couldn't actually wake the enemy up.
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Re: Bought the game, loving it, and a pile of thoughts

Postby BlueSalamander » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:02 pm

Then you have beaten the ultra fight! Congratulations! Did you manage to save the others too?

I couldn’t reproduce the “Attacks x/x” graphic bug yet, did it happen after a particular action or event? For example, after swapping a weapon in your inventory, using a certain spell, or receiving an AOO? Also, did you experience any actual missing attacks in version 1.08?
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Re: Bought the game, loving it, and a pile of thoughts

Postby BlueSalamander » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:19 pm

Oh nevermind this, I'm reading it in your files. Good job!
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Re: Bought the game, loving it, and a pile of thoughts

Postby xalles » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:34 pm

Edit: Heh crosspost. I didn't realize how long I spend preparing these posts before I submit them. :lol:

BlueSalamander wrote:Then you have beaten the ultra fight! Congratulations! Did you manage to save the others too?

No. :( It took so many tries to win the fight at all I'm not sure I have the gumption to try to save them. The wizard often dies to a slaying arrow before I even get a turn, hehe. (I did think to use Mass Death Ward, but he still dies a lot before I am able to cast it.)

Edit: If I could have True Res'd them I could have saved them. ;)

BlueSalamander wrote:I couldn’t reproduce the “Attacks x/x” graphic bug yet, did it happen after a particular action or event?

Not that I can remember, no. In the two instances in the Tower, I'm pretty sure Elinor got "ATTACK 01/01", and lost the rest of her attacks, in my first turn of the fight, if not THE first turn of the fight. I might have done a five-foot step beforehand. Note that if you do a non-five-foot move and then attack, it still says "ATTACK 01/04" or whatever even though you only get one attack, and I distinctly remember it said "01/01" when I lost attacks. And when it happened, I could reload and replay the same fight until Elinor went first again and the bug wouldn't happen again. Sorry, but it was so rare and unexpected I can't remember any more specifics.

BlueSalamander wrote:Also, did you experience any actual missing attacks in version 1.08?

No. I've seen the ATTACK thing display the wrong numbers twice in 1.08, but I didn't actually lose attacks either time. Whenever I saw the error before 1.08, I lost attacks every time. Bear in mind that I played through the vast majority of the game before 1.08.

I played through v1.08 of the demo, and I liked the in medias res nature of it. It was also fun to play with lower level guys again. That *demo spoilers* fall-into-undead fight took a lot of tries to beat, even fully rested at level 7. Haven't been able to beat the fight after yet; I'll want to rebuild my guys better to prepare for it.

Here's some more thoughts I had while playing the demo. Note that where applicable, these thoughts apply to the full game also.

73) Interface: Could denote composite longbows and shortbows in the name, like you did for masterwork and special materials. Could either say something like "comp longbow" or change the color of the text, since bows can't be made out of special materials (I vote for red).

74) Demo typo?: The dwarf outside of the ruins in the demo mentions Graypeeble.

75) Interface: I think the default non-combat action with an NPC should be talk instead of view. It reverts to view on save/load, and after other actions. Like combat actions, I think it'd be even better if the game remembered what the player last did to an NPC outside of combat (talk/view/attack) and remembered it with the save file.

76) Demo: I think some of the stuff in the demo should be tracked by the quest log, like *demo spoilers* the friendly spider's quest to kill the thugs, and maybe saving the dwarf trader, etc.

77) Interface: Should be able to click "L-1", "L-2", etc on the craft wand and scribe scroll screens to look at arcane/cleric spells of that level, like you can on the normal spell screen.

78) Typo?: Both shield types say they're made of steel in their default descriptions, even if they're made of mithril. Not sure if there's other equipment like this.

79) Interface: If you start to edit an item's description and go "back" (without pressing ENTER), then you look at another item, the new item will have the description you were editing before. One way to remedy this would be to finalize an item's description (the effect of pressing ENTER while editing it) whenever the item's screen is left, as a result of going "back" or "forward" or clicking on a link. The game does finalize the description when you "return to the game" (or press ESC).

80) Demo: I think the +1 Plate found *demo spoilers* in the bandits' secret room should have a different icon/description from normal full plate.
Last edited by xalles on Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Bought the game, loving it, and a pile of thoughts

Postby BlueSalamander » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:47 pm

I've just read your play-through journal... Awesome. Very entertaining. Seems a bit strange to me though, that you left Taneliz before defeating the Slaver Lords.

xalles wrote:I've seen the ATTACK thing display the wrong numbers twice in 1.08, but I didn't actually lose attacks either time. Whenever I saw the error before 1.08, I lost attacks every time. Bear in mind that I played through the vast majority of the game before 1.08.
That's the hardest kind of bug to remove. Perhaps it happened after you triggered someone's ready versus approach, or when you took damage from some creature's energy defence?
The temple battle should be without glitch now.

Yellow may be better for composite longbow, since red is already used for adamantine.
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Re: Bought the game, loving it, and a pile of thoughts

Postby xalles » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:19 pm

BlueSalamander wrote:Seems a bit strange to me though, that you left...

I found the underground passage before leaving, but while I thought it was suspicious, especially with the stationary gorgon, IIRC the exit at the other end made me not look further. If it were a dead end I would have searched it for sure. It was long after that I figured that was the only place left to look so I went back.

BlueSalamander wrote:Perhaps it happened after you triggered someone's ready versus approach,

It's possible this happened in the Tower. Of course I've done this a lot without seeing the bug. And remember the bug at least appeared on the screen when I used a ranged attack. (That screen was from a world map battle 1.08 and I didn't lose attacks.)

BlueSalamander wrote:or when you took damage from some creature's energy defence?

I don't think so.

BlueSalamander wrote:Yellow may be better for composite longbow, since red is already used for adamantine.

Yeah I'd say using a different color altogether is definitely better.
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Re: Bought the game, loving it, and a pile of thoughts

Postby Demiath » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:40 pm

After more than 50 hours, I think I've done everything in the full version of the game. I'm probably gonna play the demo next, since I hear it's fun. I may also try a variant in the full version like four-wizards or no-crafting, though probably take a break first.


Impressive gaming. I just beat Tyranixxus and finished the main quest myself but I haven't visited Norglade or the Tower yet, and I'm somewhere around the advertised 25 hour minimum mark.
Last edited by Demiath on Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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