Let's have a Monk!

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Re: Let's have a Monk!

Postby getter77 » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:21 pm

Darthcast wrote:I think I'd never take a druid or monk when there are only 4 characters in the party... But I guess that's a matter of taste...

This Psionic stuff sounds interesting. Do you have a link where it is explained in a nutshell?


If you've a PSP or fancy a jaunt to GameFAQs you could also check up on something of the gist of it via the game Dungeons&Dragons Tactics. Part of the things I'll need to refresh my own memory on same as the other classes if I'm to contribute to best effect on these deliberations.
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Re: Let's have a Monk!

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Re: Let's have a Monk!

Postby MonkeyLancer » Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:14 pm

here's a link , and you'll find a list of their spells on the site too http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Psion

I think they would be great and quite fitting for KOTC and a interesting alternative to have a wizard, just as a druid is a great alternative to a cleric if your party is a little nature-lovin' or not fighting as much undead.
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Re: Let's have a Monk!

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:07 pm

Psi was fun in Darksun, but imo it ruled. As in it was overpowered. Mass Dominate, Ego Whip... and you had a lot of spell points if you didn't waste them for damage psi abilities like Disintegrate etc.
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Re: Let's have a Monk!

Postby Narsham » Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:28 pm

VentilatorOfDoom wrote:Psi was fun in Darksun, but imo it ruled. As in it was overpowered. Mass Dominate, Ego Whip... and you had a lot of spell points if you didn't waste them for damage psi abilities like Disintegrate etc.


3.5 Psionics are extremely well balanced against the spell system. In particular, having DCs set by controlling stats instead of stat rolls to use powers eliminates the stupid "failure option balances the overpowered effects" logic of 2nd ed. Point costs are also well balanced against the spell system.

If anything, the flaw in 3.5 Psionics is in how close the powers sometimes seem to being wizard spells...

Recommendations for Monk conversion:
4th L Slow Fall: Replace with the Tumble ability (level check to avoid AoO while moving). Or give Monks Tumble from the start and allow them to move through friendly and enemy spaces at 4th L.
5th L Purity of Body: If you don't have diseases in-game, I'd say just drop it.
6th L Improved disarm/trip feats: Replace with other free feats if not available. Something from the Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack tree seems like a good option.
17th L Tongue of the Sun and Moon: Maybe just drop this one too.
19th L Empty Body: I'm guessing that going Ethereal isn't going to come up. If you're allowing the Dimension Door power from earlier, maybe improve it?

Also, either allow spellcasters to enchant Monk unarmed attacks with extra powers (like Holy/Axiomatic), or take the easier option and incorporate choices along with level-up. Also, allow the Monk's unarmed Ki Strike to stack its ability to penetrate DR. That will make Monks valuable indeed and help compensate for their limitations.
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Re: Let's have a Monk!

Postby BlueSalamander » Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:47 pm

Narsham wrote:If anything, the flaw in 3.5 Psionics is in how close the powers sometimes seem to being wizard spells...
They will have a good number of unique powers not mentioned in the book. I'll write about it later on.

Narsham wrote:Recommendations for Monk conversion:
Thanks for that, what do you think about flurry of blows? perhaps should be always on, except when the player clicks attack on the menu?
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Re: Let's have a Monk!

Postby Narsham » Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:08 pm

BlueSalamander wrote:Thanks for that, what do you think about flurry of blows? perhaps should be always on, except when the player clicks attack on the menu?


Hmm... I would probably have them always on. Just as with the "default to full attack," there's only a few instances where you wouldn't want to take the flurry if you can.
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Re: Let's have a Monk!

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:46 am

Also, either allow spellcasters to enchant Monk unarmed attacks with extra powers (like Holy/Axiomatic), or take the easier option and incorporate choices along with level-up.


Gloves could be used and could be enchanted like other weapons.
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Re: Let's have a Monk!

Postby getter77 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:01 am

Still trying to wring and coalesce my gist of notions for a "different" Monk class from my head...just gotta put more pieces together.

My goal is something that will play VERY differently endgame and otherwise versus say, how KoTC wrangled things for Fighters/Knights. In general, that's my hope for all of the eventual classes in the game---for everything to play within as different a paradigm as possible.
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Re: Let's have a Monk!

Postby MonkeyLancer » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:00 am

When I make characters I like to make overall concepts that I try to remain true to when I play cRPGs, KOTC included :geek: . I've recently pondered a hermit or anchorite/anchoress monk-like archetype which I like. Which I think is more fitting in a medieval western European fantasy setting then a kung-fu monk IMHO and it also certainly fits in a multitude of other cultural settings. I also think their interest in zen-like piety of body and mind works with the game mechanics too.
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Re: Let's have a Monk!

Postby getter77 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:54 pm

Right, let's do this thing. The deepest of nuts and bolt I shall defer to Blue as the key thing is the gist of a featureset and gist of a playstyle. Based upon that Monk link Blue provided earlier, here's what remains after my vicious culling:

Class skills: Meh, I'm sure most wouldn't have any application unless this sequel will be waaay out there from KoTC, so nifty stuff is nifty as it does. Perhaps just avoid overlap with other classes as possible, which would need some refined figuring if it comes down to that at the time.

Specials: Same as skills really, most I doubt would be featured like the various Slow Fall's and the like. Since most won't exist, that would leave the Monk quite lacking compared to a Fighter/Knight...but I've a plan on that front!

Weapon proficiency: NONE. Unarmed/grappling all the way. My reasoning? Well, let's be honest here, if you want to rack up big damage numbers from swinging something around that will also likely wreak destruction based on being branded destruction, flavor of any elements, greatly tweaked via crafting/forging, etc...the Knight/Fighter folk pretty much have that locked down. Logic would then state the Monks in this visage would have a reason to not just chuck it and becoming yet another death dealing Axe swinger and the like...which I'll get to....

Now!

So, we've got a Monk where most of the Specials won't make much sense, and probably some of the Class skills. He's still rotten with armor, and has decided not to serve as an "also ran" alongside the roving armory that is a Fighter/Knight. All he's got is Unarmed/Grappling to his name, so there must be something to it...right? Not just a gimp challenge class?

Indeed this is so.

For me, the best way to approach a Monk in this case is one that plays off the inherent strengths of Unarmed Combat/Grappling for analogous effects in combat that the Giant Flaming Axiomatic Destruction styled folk simply would NOT be able to replicate. It is a given that the Monk will be hitting a good number of hits considering his arms and legs---hits that do damage but nowhere near the degree of a seasoned Fighter/Knight within their specializations and probably in some cases even outside that.

So, if the prime effect they have are Giant Numbers when all is said and done, let the Monks have Varied Effects.

For unarmed strikes in general combat, have it to where, after say the point where a 2nd attack happens or so, at regular spaced intervals, the Monk gain the chance to inflict an appropriate condition, as applicable to physiology of the target, to one of his strikes not unlike how an Elemental brand would trigger for a Fighter/Knight. Such effects would have a chance to save against via Reflex/Fort as it makes logical sense. As the Monk level rises, the "pool" of possible things to inflict increases. Perhaps have it to where, with any Monk strike after the initial one, there is a 50% chance of some effect being triggered on each subsequent hit, and within that 50% chance an even split between however many afflictions are possible within the pool(smartly modified so that a Monk doesn't try for an impossible move given the foe in question) IE: If only has 4 currently then 1/4 chance for each, 1/6 if up to 6, and so on. Upon reaching the max level, among whatever else could make sense, I should reckon any(all?) applicable "afflictions" function in a way comparable to a Heightened Magic Spell versus a standard one in terms of Saving Throws and the like. Unlike magic though, any comparable durations would be much shorter than spellcasting, probably only to be 1 round or so in duration---so as to create brief and potent tactical windows in concert with team members.

Examples: A hit could be: Eye strike comparable to a Blind spell, Throat strike comparable to a Mute spell, "solar plexus" strike comparable to a Stun spell. Ear palming/boxing for a Deaf condition. And so on. Things that MIGHT be possible via spellcasting, but more than likely impossible to have happen via weaponry.

Grappling would take on a similar stance/rule set to striking so that there would be more options than just to pin. Afterall, if grappling isn't significantly different in outcomes to just standing there unleashing blows, what's the point? What should probably happen is for there to be some roughly overlapping effects between special melee and grapple strikes, with tweaking as per logic, but for each to ultimately have their own pool of unique effects to base a strategy upon so as to have their be more of an impetus to Grappling versus just wanting to Pin somebody and invalidate their shiny weapon as in KoTC 1.

Examples could fall in lines with Monster tricks in KoC 1...Rakeing with fingers to cause Bleeding or some effect, ditto for Constriction, etc. An analogue to the Throat strike for a Mute effect could be Fish Hooking the mouth(with differences to Saves and such to make it a bit different an attempt than a Throat Strike). A "Sleep" condition setting up for a Coup de Grace could be attained by managing a "Throttle" command for 2 rounds(2nd round needing better rolls to succeed versus initializing it) in a row in failed saves. And so on.

Aside from the fist eventually turning Adamantine or some such, I like the idea of taking up Ring slots(maybe Gloves/Boots to some degree but eh...) so as to impart roughly functional Silver and Cold Iron qualites to the hits as applicable.

So yeah, there it is, a Monk centered around Unique or Mage-like affliction inflicting to balance his lesser raw damage numbers, leaving the rather straightforward Giant Elemental Alignment Numbers to the Fighter/Knight to work out, using his/her body to a weapon to the utmost degree possible far beyond the random punching a Knight who lost his weapon would manage. Play would be QUITE different in terms of combat choices and team strategies, as a Monk would simply require a different mindset to go along with the non-standard skillset---such as a much closer eye to pay to the Bestiary information in each encounter so as to target those most tactically afflictable(Or least, which could make them most...), whereas a warrior might likely only care about elemental and alignment properties.

Surely, much tweaking to be had, but I generally believe in this build and furthermore it would be relatively unique versus any prior Monk inclusive D&D games(can't have the old guard getting bored and psychic can we?) and thus lend yet another special bit of flavor to the KoTC realm of things which seems to be the order of the day to achieve with the entire lot of it.
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