Quest items/rewards

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Re: Quest items/rewards

Postby BlueSalamander » Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:55 pm

Ugh, please don't use weapon groups. It's far smarter to have artifact weapons with some special property (such as +6 for only 5 "enchantment points" or +4d6 damage for only 4 "enchantment points") for the more obscure Martial weapons (that is, not Longsword, Greatsword, Greataxe, Halberd, and Longbow) and the exotic weapons (Bastard Sword and Dwarven Waraxe). Having to decide whether you use a better weapon that you're not quite as good with is an interesting decision.
Agreed about the decision, but doesn't it seem a bit cheap to you that a fighter (the expert in weapons and war) would be brilliant with a greataxe and just okay with the battle axe? Great with the heavy flail and just okay with the light flail? The second-edition fighter was good with all weapons, so you could immediately swap with whatever new weapon you found if it was better. Ultimately I think that would make the game more satisfying for the player, if he doesn't need to discard 80% of the new weapons found just on the basis that they're not the chosen type.
[edited as kukri was a bad choice, see http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm for a more complete idea]
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Re: Quest items/rewards

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Re: Quest items/rewards

Postby erkper » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:11 pm

BlueSalamander wrote:Agreed about the decision, but doesn't it seem a bit cheap to you that a fighter (the expert in weapons and war) would be brilliant with a greataxe and just okay with the battle axe? Great with the dagger and just okay with the kukri? The second-edition fighter was good with all weapons, so you could immediately swap with whatever new weapon you found if it was better. Ultimately I think that would make the game more satisfying for the player, if he doesn't need to discard 80% of the new weapons found just on the basis that they're not the chosen type.

IDK, BlueS - a fighter who hasn't spent feats to improve his ability with a morningstar is still far better with it than a cleric or any other non-warrior class. No one forces you to take Weapon Focus, Specialization, Greater Focus/Specialization, Improved Crit to max out one weapon type while basically ignoring everything else. That's a player choice - and when you make choices, shouldn't there be consequences both positive and negative for choosing as you do?
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Re: Quest items/rewards

Postby Darthcast » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:47 pm

Ultimately I think that would make the game more satisfying for the player, if he doesn't need to discard 80% of the new weapons found just on the basis that they're not the chosen type.

Definitely. It's only logical that a character who is proficient with a short bow also knows how to use a long bow, or a character that can wield a light mace also knows how to wield a heavy mace.
I like how it's done in Wizardry 8. One skill for axes, one for swords etc.
But much more important, it's simply more fun. You finally get a chance to use the weapons you find. Otherwise all loot could as well be money...
It wouldn't be unbalanced because you can already craft what you want anyway. Also, there are several very similar weapons right now, like morningstar and heavy mace (both 1d8; 20x2; bludgeoning).
The only character that would be a bit stronger is a two weapon fighting character that wants to use different weapons.
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Re: Quest items/rewards

Postby crpgnut » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:13 pm

You could just have a party bag of holding which could hold X number of items. It could be accessed just like the inventories of the players. It could be the number 9 key, for instance. I would have killed for a cloak of protection against humanoid arrows of slaying. I'd give it to my cleric even though the temptation would be to give it to the wizard. One thing I hated in the game was even if I had protection vs arrows up an arrow of slaying could kill me.
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Re: Quest items/rewards

Postby Darthcast » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:35 pm

Didn't Death Ward protect against arrows of slaying?
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Re: Quest items/rewards

Postby Narsham » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:34 pm

Darthcast wrote:Didn't Death Ward protect against arrows of slaying?


Yes. Although that was not very helpful if your cleric was killed on round 1 by an arrow of slaying before being able to cast it.
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Re: Quest items/rewards

Postby some_name » Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:42 am

Agreed about the decision, but doesn't it seem a bit cheap to you that a fighter (the expert in weapons and war) would be brilliant with a greataxe and just okay with the battle axe?

A fighter is never "just okay" with any weapon. A figher "knows how to use" (i.e., is proficient with) everything, but there's a difference in meaning between proficient and good. A huge BAB seems more like "quite good" than "just okay" to me. Weapon Focus confers a +1 to BAB with the chosen type, or, at level 20, an approximately 4% bonus (taking likely STR and Enhancement bonus into the equation- I'm assuming +5 at level 20 and a +3 weapon. With STR belts, the %bonus is obviously reduced). Weapon Specialization is about a 15% damage bonus, assuming longsword, +5 STR bonus, and a +3 weapon, not counting + damage dice enhancements and HP loss from things like wounding/level drain. Hardly seems unreasonable from a "real world logic" perspective.
Ultimately I think that would make the game more satisfying for the player, if he doesn't need to discard 80% of the new weapons found just on the basis that they're not the chosen type.

You'd discard an artifact weapon for a 4% bonus to BAB if it were good enough to be truly special?
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Re: Quest items/rewards

Postby Narsham » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:14 pm

some_name wrote:
Ultimately I think that would make the game more satisfying for the player, if he doesn't need to discard 80% of the new weapons found just on the basis that they're not the chosen type.

You'd discard an artifact weapon for a 4% bonus to BAB if it were good enough to be truly special?


In fairness, if I spent 5 feats on a single weapon type I'd probably go with an inferior weapon of that type. Weapon focus/Weapon specialization/Greater focus/Greater Specialization and Improved Critical represent a substantial specialization penalty if you then don't use the weapon type you chose. And with the ability to make your own, I'm not sure the choice between a +6 artifact weapon, perhaps with other modifiers which don't entirely fit my character build or party, and a +5 weapon I crafted myself is going to be a hard one.

You're also not figuring in enemy AC levels. If a fighter's first attack has a 25% hit chance, all subsequent attacks have a 5% hit chance. If a fighter's first attack receives a +2 bonus from Greater Focus, that turns into a 35% hit chance, with the second attack at a 10% hit chance and all subsequent attacks at 5%. If you're also doing +4 damage per hit with an extended threat range, that becomes even more valuable. Since Blue Salamander decided not to allow Improved Crit. and Keen weapon to stack, the weapons specialist approach looks less appealing in KotC than in regular 3.5, but there's still a measurable advantage to taking the feats.

4.0 uses weapon classes (heavy blade, mace, axe, etc) and I don't think that breaks anything.

An alternative would be to allow a certain amount of feat retraining over the course of the game.
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Re: Quest items/rewards

Postby erkper » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:42 pm

Narsham wrote:Since Blue Salamander decided not to allow Improved Crit. and Keen weapon to stack, the weapons specialist approach looks less appealing in KotC than in regular 3.5, but there's still a measurable advantage to taking the feats.

I'm pretty sure (without looking it up) that in 3.5 you aren't supposed to be able to stack Improved Crit and Keen. NWN let you, but NWN was never particularly strong in it's D&D rules compliance...
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Re: Quest items/rewards

Postby Narsham » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:34 am

erkper wrote:
Narsham wrote:Since Blue Salamander decided not to allow Improved Crit. and Keen weapon to stack, the weapons specialist approach looks less appealing in KotC than in regular 3.5, but there's still a measurable advantage to taking the feats.

I'm pretty sure (without looking it up) that in 3.5 you aren't supposed to be able to stack Improved Crit and Keen. NWN let you, but NWN was never particularly strong in it's D&D rules compliance...


You're right, it's another of the 3.5 changes my gaming group never observed in the switch from 3.0. He could probably use the 3.0 version given how much he's toned down the effects of scoring a crit...

Just like we ignored the square horses... ;)
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