The two things I'd most like to see

Here's the place to talk about the features you would like to see in a sequel to KotC.

Re: The two things I'd most like to see

Postby some_name » Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:21 am

screeg wrote:
some_name wrote:
screeg wrote:Protip: If you create generalist characters, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.

What does that mean? I play the game to have fun, not to maximize my munchkin potential by carefully reviewing every multi-class combination. What I said was I think multi-classing takes away from the experience, where Clerics have certain weaknesses and disadvantages, because they are Clerics. How does taking away the weaknesses and keeping all the strengths improve gameplay? It just dilutes the archetypes that the classes represent. And once you include three or four different variations on the core class (Paladin, Barbarian, Knight, for example), why do you need multi-classes on top of that? It just turns a clean system into a muddle.

Except since Clerics are already good fighters, it doesn't remove their weakness; it only helps bolster a strength. Their real weaknesses are no arcane spells, few skill points, and poor reflex saves, none of which are helped by 1 Fighter level.

As for your "why include multi-ing if we have Pally, Barbie, and Fighter?"- well, for one thing, you can't have a Pally/Barbie due to alignment restrictions, and if the rules are implemented correctly, a multied Pally will be VERY rare, so that really only leaves Fighter/Barbie. Ever played a single-classed Barbie? Hint- level up is boring. You simply click "accept" on 75% of your levels. Allowing multiclassing actually gives you some options, at least for the two levels where you take Fighter. Further, whether to take Fighter isn't a completely trivial decision- you'll never use the additional proficiencies, since using heavy armor actively works against what Barbie does well, and since Barbie takes getting hit for granted (his key ability reduces AC), the smaller hit die actually works against him. But, played correctly, you can get to his key feats two or three levels earlier (of course, with the relaxed pre-reqs in KotC, this isn't as much of an issue).

BlueS:
Why would Stoneskin be personal range? It's a touch range spell.

As for appropriate spells: you've already got Mage Armor as a prebuff. Freedom of Movement is 10 minutes per level. So is Magic Circle Against Evil. Mind Blank is 24 hours. Those are the ones I can think of off hand; there are probably more I missed because I rarely use them.

If it's just for the benefit that a barbarian can get extra fighter feats, that doesn't seem reasonable.

Another example- the assassin class. Provided he gets sneak attack, a few fighter levels for improved hit dice, BAB, and Short Sword/Rapier proficiency, not to mention extra feats, would be a natural choice so that he can really go crazy with the two-weapon sneak attack. Barbarian would have a similar effect, although sacrificing AC on what I assume is not a high HP class is risky (extra speed is always cool, though). If you had a pure rogue (or just something that had sneak attacks but no casting ability), rogue + ranger is an obvious natural combination (both are skill monkeys, fighting style gives more Sneak Attacks if 2 weapon is chosen, Animal Companion sets up sneak attacks).
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Re: The two things I'd most like to see

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Re: The two things I'd most like to see

Postby Archangel » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:03 pm

I would say instead of multiclassing 3 PRCs could be implemented, each a mix of two existing classes. And each class could choose to go into one of the two that are connected with them. Eldritch Knight for wizards and fighters would work. Mystic Theurge for wizards and clerics. And Holy Champion for Fighters and Clerics.
Depending on from which class you came into it you would either be a better spellcaster or a better fighter. To make things more simple I suggest you have to level your base class to lvl 10 and then for the next 10 level either chose to level in PRC or continue in your original class.
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Re: The two things I'd most like to see

Postby Flux_Capacitor » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:55 pm

1. Instead of being able to pre-buff as much as you want, maybe there could be something like a 'buffing round'. This would occur before the surprise round, and each character would be allowed one action. Movement would be disallowed, and the enemies and their position should probably also be hidden. This gives the party a chance to mount some defense, but they will still need to make some hard decisions about what would provide the greatest benefits. This should alleviate some of the problems with survival being so dependent on initiative rolls, but not allow the party to be completely buffed.

2. Instead of multi-classing (which is difficult to implement, and can cause some balance problems) and prestige classes, how about something more like specialties. Sort of like arcane schools for the wizard. They could be taken at any level (provided the requirements were met), you could only pick one, and it can never be changed. For instance, a Knight might decide to specialize as an archer, which might provide some of the benefits of the Arcane Archer prestige class (like Hail of Arrows and Enchant Arrow), and a better bonus to ranged rolls. However, they can't wear heavy armor, and their melee attack rolls are penalized. Or, a Cleric or Wizard could choose to specialize as an artificer. The max enchantment on weapons and armor could go up by 1, and they have a reduced cost for crafting items. On the other hand, they can't learn spells from scrolls, and can only learn 1 new spell per level.

Another option is what I'm probably going to be doing in my CRPG, which is to look at what has been done with the Fighter. That is, instead of simply forcing certain abilities on a character based on their level, let them select an option from a pool of abilities. Take all of their normal abilities, and throw them and whatever other appropriate abilities you want into a pool (after some possible adjusting and rebalancing, of course). For instance, say a Barbarian doesn't have any of their normal special abilities except Rage (since its such a fundamental class ability), and it can only be used once per day. At character creation, and when he gains a level, a list of abilities he qualifies for is presented, and he selects one (or whatever). A first level Barbarian might have the following abilities to choose from - Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, Power Attack, Great Fortitude, one additional round of Rage, and so on. As he gains levels, additional abilities, like Damage Reduction, additional Rages per day, Greater Rage, Weapon Specialization in Greataxe, additional damage while Raging, immunity to Shaken while Raging, improved resistance vs Fear effects while Raging, etc., open up. So, if they wanted, a player could develop their Barbarian to look identical to the base version, or they could create one that looks entirely different, but still fits into the Barbarian theme. This also avoids the problem of all characters of class x and level y looking virtually identical.
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Re: The two things I'd most like to see

Postby BlueSalamander » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:15 pm

some_name wrote:Hint- level up is boring. You simply click "accept" on 75% of your levels.
I've never seen this as a problem. With AD&D (Dark Sun 1) there was no choice at all for the fighter and rogue types. On the contrary I do see a problem with asking every character to assign skill points at level up, for example.

Why would Stoneskin be personal range? It's a touch range spell.
Considering I would make that spell a permanent one, reducing its range sounds like a good trade-off to me. Otherwise, every enemy group that includes a wizard will be pre-buffed with stoneskin, and I don't want that. Also I don't want to force or encourage the player to cast the spell up to four times after resting.

Freedom of Movement is 10 minutes per level. So is Magic Circle Against Evil.
I'll see about these. IMO though, the less pre-buffing available, the better.
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Re: The two things I'd most like to see

Postby screeg » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:04 pm

If you do (please god forbid) allow prebuffing, would it be practical to have it as an optional setting? Because you intend to allow enemy prebuffing (which makes perfect sense in the context),then every player would have to go through the whole tedious spellcasting dance for every combat, or at least after every rest. I remember this from ToEE and I don't think it added anything to the game.
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Re: The two things I'd most like to see

Postby Flux_Capacitor » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:39 pm

BlueSalamander wrote:On the contrary I do see a problem with asking every character to assign skill points at level up, for example.

Well, if you did plan on implementing skills, there's a rather simple solution to this - keep track of the selected skills for each character at each level up. When its time to level up again, auto-select the skills selected from the previous level. If the player wants to make changes, they're free to do so. Otherwise, they can basically skip the skill screen. Most characters stick with the same skills throughout their entire career, so its not a big deal. Frankly, I don't know why ToEE didn't do this, since its such an obvious enhancement.
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Re: The two things I'd most like to see

Postby BlueSalamander » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:36 pm

Flux_Capacitor wrote:Well, if you did plan on implementing skills
Not planning to, otherwise good idea.

screeg wrote:If you do (please god forbid) allow prebuffing
Not to worry screeg, assuming it's Stoneskin, it would be just like Mage Armor, there would be an option to auto-cast it.
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Re: The two things I'd most like to see

Postby some_name » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:03 am

BlueSalamander wrote:I've never seen this as a problem. With AD&D (Dark Sun 1) there was no choice at all for the fighter and rogue types. On the contrary I do see a problem with asking every character to assign skill points at level up, for example.

I've never played the Dark Sun series, but the AD&D games I have played (namely, the EotB series) has definitely suffered from inflexible level-ups, and would have been improved by more choices in character building.

Considering I would make that spell a permanent one, reducing its range sounds like a good trade-off to me. Otherwise, every enemy group that includes a wizard will be pre-buffed with stoneskin, and I don't want that. Also I don't want to force or encourage the player to cast the spell up to four times after resting.

It only makes sense that an enemy group would be entirely stoneskinned if they were expecting to fight. If they are, then yes, they should all be stoneskinned, and there's really nothing wrong with that. If they aren't, then they shouldn't be stoneskinned. Likewise, I see nothing wrong with allowing the player that option. More options is GOOD, not bad.

I'll see about these. IMO though, the less pre-buffing available, the better.

Don't forget Mind Blank (unless it's already pre-buffable and I missed it); a spell that's listed in the SRD as 24 hours is pretty blatantly intended to be used as a pre-buff (and the system is kind of broken if it can't be used, as mind spells are so powerful...).
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Re: The two things I'd most like to see

Postby Darthcast » Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:29 am

I really don't like this. I think it would be a pain in the $#!@ to always have to dispel prebuffs at the beginning of a combat. Also, according to this logic enemies would only be prebuffed if they surprise the party, and ambushes are already tough enough imo.

Furthermore, I wouldn't say it's more options. It can also be less, because you always have to waste your spell slots for prebuffing.

Mage armor is an exception imo because it cannot be combined with armors or armor bracers. It's useful at the beginning because otherwise your mage dies so fast. You won't use it in late game because by then an armor + gloves of dexterity is far better.
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Re: The two things I'd most like to see

Postby some_name » Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:11 am

Darthcast wrote:I really don't like this. I think it would be a pain in the $#!@ to always have to dispel prebuffs at the beginning of a combat. Also, according to this logic enemies would only be prebuffed if they surprise the party, and ambushes are already tough enough imo.

"Have to"? No one is making you dispel the prebuffs. If you can cut through stoneskin without needing a Dispell (which, BTW, doesn't always work), there's nothing stopping you. Also, enemies wouldn't just be prebuffed if they surprised you. Take the fight with Kessa, for instance- she's probably expecting you. She certainly heard the ruckus outside. Another example- the head Fire Giant. Second fight with the Lich in the Undead Tower as well.

Furthermore, I wouldn't say it's more options. It can also be less, because you always have to waste your spell slots for prebuffing

No one is making you do it. If it is more effective, then, yes, do it. In a limited rest situation, it may not always be best, because you need those spell slots for other things.
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