Let's have a better magic system(than D&D's "Fire & Forget")

Here's the place to talk about the features you would like to see in a sequel to KotC.

Re: Let's have a better magic system(than D&D's "Fire & Forget")

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:50 pm

thx Archangel, so it is as I thought, the spell point system surely sounds interesting but it creates a lot of additional balancing issues. That's probably the reason why I didn't encounter many CRPGs where it was done really well.
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Re: Let's have a better magic system(than D&D's "Fire & Forget")


Re: Let's have a better magic system(than D&D's "Fire & Forget")

Postby Narsham » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:05 pm

SkeleTony wrote:
VentilatorOfDoom wrote:You know I really wouldn't mind if I could decide for myself how to spend my spell power. Casting 30 lvl 3 spells or casting 10 lvl9 spells... whatever you need atm.
Sounds good. But somehow in the CRPGs I played it never worked out that good, as I previously mentioned. But maybe a system like this http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm combined with the KotC-need not prepare spells approach could be interesting. It certainly adds more dynamism and versatility to casters. But it think it will cause additional problems with balancing.

I knew there were more rational people in here somewhere. :D This is exactly in line with what I am trying to get across in this thread. Some people get so caught up in being offended by criticism of D&D and defending it like it were their religion and I was some kind of thug looting their sacred temples...

Yes, I agree. It's utterly irrational to keep defending the D&D system on the grounds that it isn't simply a lame implementation of Vancian magic. Thank goodness the good folks who wrote the D20 system offered a variant spell-point system which gets away from the Vancian system. If only those foolish D&D designers had talked to the good people who wrote D20. :roll:

Note that the variant magic system Ventilator linked to is basically what Cordell followed in designing 3.5 Psionics. The basic costs and boosting concept are pretty much ported over directly. As Archangel noted, there's a mismatch between the boosting of 3.5 Psionics and the baseline approach of the other magic types, where you don't have to "pay extra" to cast a damaging spell at full effect.

I would guess that Blue Salamander will need to rebalance 3.5 Psionic powers in any event, especially since some of the modifications you can purchase won't apply in-game. Blue seems quite ambitious, so he might want to think about porting the psionic architecture to the other magic types and offering "all spell-points" as a game option. That assumes that he finds it worth the time to balance out all the spells properly...

Limited resting opportunities in KotC 2 will somewhat deal with the "working day" issue Archangel points out. The "Nova" effect can be countered by making sure that the maximum effect of psionic powers is in line with what other classes can do. Another way to grant psionics effectiveness and distinctiveness without overpowering them would be to indulge the tendency to make psions good at locking down or defeating one foe at a time, while wizards handle crowds. The problem with doing that would be in having some encounters become easier or harder based on party composition, but that's always going to be an issue (4 clerics vs undead is quite different from 4 knights vs undead).
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Re: Let's have a better magic system(than D&D's "Fire & Forget")

Postby wesleyshaver » Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:20 pm

What in blazes are you guys on about? KOTC does NOT use the Vancian system. The old gold box SSI AD&D games did and it was a poor system. I'd have two mages memorizing 5 fireballs each every time they rested. The only 3rd level spell they could ever cast was "fireball" because that's all I memorized. The Vancian system leads to constantly memorizing the same one or two spells every spell level because they were more effective. KOTC does not do this, you can cast any spell you want from a given spell level a limited number of times per day. This is a spell point system just like the one in Final Fantasy 1. KOTC's magic system is excellent, logical, and fun.
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Re: Let's have a better magic system(than D&D's "Fire & Forget")

Postby Archangel » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:42 am

Yes, KotC uses a sorcerer casting system. But we are talking about Psionic system for KotC2.
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Re: Let's have a better magic system(than D&D's "Fire & Forget")

Postby Phenig » Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:45 pm

Most of the games I've tried with a spellpoints/mana system have fallen into the trap of creating a half-dozen spells that end up being constantly cast, really to the exclusion of all others.

What I like about the tiered system in this game (and other D&D-inspired games) is that it forces far more decisions. Do I really need to cast another Fireball, at the cost of not being able to Haste next battle, or can I get away with a few single-target spells instead? Some of my favorite fights are the ones where I run out of the "best" spells, and need to scrounge for alternatives in the spell-levels I have left.

It's much like the difficulty of designing a good classless profession system that doesn't result in every character becoming a "tank mage". If everything competes with everything else without restriction, then only a few options become globally dominant.
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