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Re: KotC 2 Update

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:40 pm
by Grunker
Whether it's longswords, lightningbolts or limericks.


You always have access to all lightningbolts and all limericks and can use the best ones you're specialized in. Not so with weapons.

Do real-life DMs decide the weapon type on the fly according to the needs of the party?


No. Myself and many other GMs will adjust the rules in this instance. Your weapon groupings are alternative rules from PHBII. Some players will only play things akin to the Warblade (who may refocus his weapon specializations to new weapons).

Personally, I use alternative specialization methods. You can specialize in a bunch of ways. Doing it in specific weapons causes problems - unless you have a solution to those problems being solved by any of Simsun's suggestions. Having alternative feats that provide for ways to let the fighter model their role differently.

Specializing in weapon groups is an alright alternative though - as long as every weapon group is viable and balanced. That is, you won't find out that the clearly best weapon in the game is a sword after specializing in halberds.

BUT, in my mind, don't offer the player identical weapon rewards. Make unique stuff, just make sure there are an equal amount of weapons scattered throughout the game of each weapon group, and that they are balanced towards the different groups.

Re: KotC 2 Update

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:05 pm
by Tiavals
Simsum wrote:What I don't understand, is the purpose of giving players options that you can't design interesting modules for. KoTC did a pretty good job of not giving players useless or overly powerful options, but that's an extremely rare thing. Especially in D&D-based/derivative strategy CRPGs. Don't let it go to your head, but as far as I'm aware nobody has done as good a job of it as you did in KoTC. Still... I worry about the class inflation of KoTC2. A lot of bad or boring options is - at least in my opinion - not at all preferable to a few fun ones.


Seeing as how KOTC2 is yet to be really worked on(to my understanding), we have a great amount of time to help Blue Salamander to make all of those classes meaningful and fun. We already worked on it earlier, giving our opinions on the things, and at the moment I feel they are mostly balanced. I can certainly see myself taking any of the classes without feeling they're out of balance.

If you feel that some class is completely useless, I urge you to say so, so we can think of ways on how to improve it.

The only problem I have left at the moment, is that some of the Cleric Domain powers are completely useless. (Mostly the ones from Madness to Time. Their effects can be achieved with wizard or cleric spells, to a much better degree. They might be useful for the first 5 levels, but after that they're pointless.)

Re: KotC 2 Update

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:06 pm
by screeg
I think the weapon groups and the other changes to weapon related feats is a good compromise with losing crafting.

Re: KotC 2 Update

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:09 pm
by BlueSalamander
Grunker wrote:Personally, I use alternative specialization methods. You can specialize in a bunch of ways. Doing it in specific weapons causes problems - unless you have a solution to those problems being solved by any of Simsun's suggestions. Having alternative feats that provide for ways to let the fighter model their role differently.
Well, perhaps another solution would be to reduce the number of feats of the fighter, and to modify the weapon feats so that they apply to all weapons instead of a single group or weapon. So you'd just have five feats corresponding to the weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialisation, greater weapon specialisation and improved critical.
It doesn't make sense to me that the map designer should feel compelled to provide good weapons of every category. Personally I have no problem with Swords being the most common item (the most useful category) with the other categories being potentially useful but not always. There's also the issue of providing every kind of magic scroll. In D&D 3.5 only the wizard needs to find scrolls since the others get all their spells for free.

Tiavals wrote:Seeing as how KOTC2 is yet to be really worked on(to my understanding),
Ahah, well, I also have a simple RTS project based on the same foundation code as KotC2. That allows me to develop the foundation code for KotC2 while working on something that hopefully I could release earlier than KotC2.

some of the Cleric Domain powers are completely useless. (Mostly the ones from Madness to Time. Their effects can be achieved with wizard or cleric spells, to a much better degree. They might be useful for the first 5 levels, but after that they're pointless.)
Do you think that these domains should be modified (any idea how?), or simply removed?

Re: KotC 2 Update

PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:30 am
by Grunker
Sure there is a problem with Swords being the most common and the most powerful. There is no reason not to use anything but Swords if that is the case. I'll try to present an alternative in another thread when I get one down :)

Re: KotC 2 Update

PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:58 pm
by Del_Duio
I highly enjoyed the Wizardslayer kit in BG2, will there be a class something like that in KotC2?

If I remember right, they couldn't use any magic weapons or items at all which sucked but every successful hit on a caster gave him cuumulative spell failure. I also think the Wizardslayer had innate spell resistance.

Re: KotC 2 Update

PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:15 pm
by Grunker
Del_Duio wrote:I highly enjoyed the the Wizardslayer kit in BG2, will there be a class something like that in KotC2?

If I remember right, they couldn't use any magic weapons or items at all which sucked but every successful hit on a caster gave him cuumulative spell failure. I also think the Wizardslayer had innate spell resistance.



They could only use magic weapons and armor. Beyond that you're right. I don't think there are any plans of prestige classes in KotC2 though, are there?

Re: KotC 2 Update

PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:54 pm
by Tiavals
BlueSalamander wrote: It doesn't make sense to me that the map designer should feel compelled to provide good weapons of every category. Personally I have no problem with Swords being the most common item (the most useful category) with the other categories being potentially useful but not always. There's also the issue of providing every kind of magic scroll. In D&D 3.5 only the wizard needs to find scrolls since the others get all their spells for free.


The difference is that a wizard gets to choose 2 spells each level, which means that he isn't completely reliant on the loot. The fighter is, however, 100% reliant on the loot that's found on the ground(if there's no crafting). That's why I prefer random loot. Not only does it make replayability better(since you don't know for sure if you'll find a super sword.), it means you don't have to worry about choosing the wrong weapon specialities and such. Say you choose Axes, and there aren't too many of them around. They are almost identical to swords in most respects, except that there's less of them as loot. A poor choice, since it has no positive sides to it.

Do you think that these domains should be modified (any idea how?), or simply removed?


Well, I always prefer a large amount of choice, if the choice is balanced.
As for modifications:

Weakness: You can perform a melee touch attack to make the target fatigued (or exhausted if it was already fatigued) for 10 rounds. No save. Spell-like ability.
It's actually worse than the 1st level wizard spell Touch of Fatigue, because it has a worse duration. Perhaps it should always make them Exhausted?

Madness: Confusion touch. Touch attack makes a living target confused for 1D6+1 rounds if it fails on a willpower saving throw of Difficulty Class 10 + half of cleric level + wisdom modifier. Spell-like ability.
Mostly a weaker version of the Paralysis-domain, except doesn't allow a save each turn.
Not sure how to improve.

Paralysis: Paralyzing touch. Touch attack makes a living target paralyzed for 1D4+1 rounds if it fails on a willpower saving throw of Difficulty Class 10 + half of cleric level + wisdom modifier. The target gets a save every round to cancel the effect. Spell-like ability.
This is effectively the same as Hold Person, a 2nd level cleric spell, except worse. The range isn't as good(only touch) and the duration is much lower as well. The only benefit is the higher saving throw, but it'll be fairly useless when it gets high, because you have better spells you can cast, making it fairly poor.
Not sure how to improve.

Disease: Touch attack forces two Fortitude saving throws of Difficulty Class 10 + half of cleric level + wisdom modifier), one to avoid becoming Sickened (-2 to saving throws, attack rolls, damage rolls) and one to avoid becoming Nauseated. The effects last 1D4+1 rounds. Spell-like ability.
Sickened and nauseated aren't too powerful as far as status effects go. That there's 2 saves for the greater effect to come up is pretty bad. I would make it Nauseate creatures if they fail even a single roll. Perhaps so that if they make the save, it Sickens them, if they fail it, it Nauseates them. That way you might use it even in late game, against foes that will definately make the save, but they will still be affected by it.

Now, you can use all of these more than once, so long as you have Turn-attempts left. But still, I would never take any of them, because their use is so limited, and there are other abilities which can replace their effect, usually even to a greater degree.

As for the once per day domains:

Blindness: Once per day, you can produce a caster-centered flash of light that makes all living enemies in a 15' radius blind for 1d2 rounds. A willpower saving throw of Difficulty Class 10 + half of cleric level + wisdom modifier negates the effect. Spell-like ability.
More or less a variant of Glitterdust(2nd level Mage spell). Much less duration, but greater radius and only affects enemies. I would probably increase the duration to 1d4+1 at a minimum. I'm not sure if it's good enough even then, but I can't think of any real improvements.

Pandemonium: Once per day, you can create a multicoloured bubble of chaotic energy covering a 10' radius circle. Everyone in the selected area becomes confused for 1d3 rounds. Reflex negates. Spell-like ability. If a target fails on its saving throw by five points or more, it gains the berserk condition instead. Each round, creatures with the berserk condition must attack the creature nearest to them.
This is almost good enough. The reflex-save makes it quite powerful, since few status change spells have a Ref-save. But 1d3 rounds is a bit too little. If it were 1d4+1 rounds, I might consider taking the domain.

Time: Once per day, you can create a time-dilation bubble covering a 10' radius circle. Everyone in the selected area becomes slowed for 1d4 rounds. Willpower negates. Spell-like ability.
A poor version of Slow. If it Haste'd all allies in the area, AND slowed all enemies, for 1d4+1 rounds, I guess it might be worth it.

Oh, and the Corrosion Domain is the absolute worst of them. Perhaps there is a misprint on the effect? A touch attack that reduces AC by 1 is pretty much a waste of effort. I don't think I'd ever use it in any circumstance. If it reduced AC by 1 per 3 or 4 levels, and did 1d6 per level against Constructs(iron golems and such), then it'd be better, I think.

Re: KotC 2 Update

PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:03 pm
by BlueSalamander
I'll try to present an alternative in another thread when I get one down
Ok thanks and what do you guys think of just having the feats apply to all the weapons? That wouldn't make the fighter a lot more powerful, just more flexible. Kind of like a return to the 2nd Edition AD&D.

If I remember right, [WizardSlayer] couldn't use any magic weapons or items at all which sucked but every successful hit on a caster gave him cumulative spell failure. I also think the Wizardslayer had innate spell resistance.
I'm not in favour of having a class that specialises in just one type of enemy (see the ranger, I removed the 'favoured enemy' part) but your description sounds a bit like what the Monk could or should do. In my design the Monk gets SR from level 13.
Was the BG 2 cumulative spell failure just for one round or for the whole fight? Did it stop the ability of some creatures to summon stuff? Did it also remove existing magic effects like 'Protection from magic weapons'? The BG 2 wizardslayer kit sounds very powerful for a fighter, the only downside is that he can't drink magic potions? :shock:

I don't think there are any plans of prestige classes in KotC2 though, are there?
No I'm not planning for that. Things are complicated enough already...

Weakness: You can perform a melee touch attack to make the target fatigued (or exhausted if it was already fatigued) for 10 rounds. No save. Spell-like ability.
It's actually worse than the 1st level wizard spell Touch of Fatigue, because it has a worse duration. Perhaps it should always make them Exhausted?
Okay for Exhausted but then it should be a once-per-day power only, IMO. Exhausted is pretty severe without a save.

Madness: Confusion touch. Touch attack makes a living target confused for 1D6+1 rounds if it fails on a willpower saving throw of Difficulty Class 10 + half of cleric level + wisdom modifier. Spell-like ability.
Mostly a weaker version of the Paralysis-domain, except doesn't allow a save each turn.
Not sure how to improve.
A one-off difficulty class bonus of +2 maybe?

Paralysis: Paralyzing touch. Touch attack makes a living target paralyzed for 1D4+1 rounds if it fails on a willpower saving throw of Difficulty Class 10 + half of cleric level + wisdom modifier. The target gets a save every round to cancel the effect. Spell-like ability.
This is effectively the same as Hold Person, a 2nd level cleric spell, except worse. The range isn't as good(only touch) and the duration is much lower as well. The only benefit is the higher saving throw, but it'll be fairly useless when it gets high, because you have better spells you can cast, making it fairly poor.
Not sure how to improve.
I really disagree here. It would be the same as Hold Monster not Hold Person. IMO it is a huge boost for a low-level cleric to be able to cast the equivalent of Hold Monster. At higher levels... well it's the same for all powers really? At higher levels a cleric gets better spells to cast.

Disease: Touch attack forces two Fortitude saving throws of Difficulty Class 10 + half of cleric level + wisdom modifier), one to avoid becoming Sickened (-2 to saving throws, attack rolls, damage rolls) and one to avoid becoming Nauseated. The effects last 1D4+1 rounds. Spell-like ability.
Sickened and nauseated aren't too powerful as far as status effects go. That there's 2 saves for the greater effect to come up is pretty bad. I would make it Nauseate creatures if they fail even a single roll. Perhaps so that if they make the save, it Sickens them, if they fail it, it Nauseates them. That way you might use it even in late game, against foes that will definately make the save, but they will still be affected by it.
Regarding the 2 saves - no I intend the spell to force two independent saves. So a creature could become both Sickened and Nauseated. Nauseated doesn't require two saves only one. If the creature succeeds on the 1st one but fails the 2nd one it is Nauseated. Nauseated is pretty bad - you can't do anything but move when Nauseated. You can't cast spells or attack. Basically I see this power as similar to Paralyzing touch but with a Fortitude save instead, and the target won't get another save each round.

Blindness: Once per day, you can produce a caster-centered flash of light that makes all living enemies in a 15' radius blind for 1d2 rounds. A willpower saving throw of Difficulty Class 10 + half of cleric level + wisdom modifier negates the effect. Spell-like ability.
More or less a variant of Glitterdust(2nd level Mage spell). Much less duration, but greater radius and only affects enemies. I would probably increase the duration to 1d4+1 at a minimum. I'm not sure if it's good enough even then, but I can't think of any real improvements.
Mmmm... you think it's not good enough? As opposed to what powers? But yes we can increase the duration to 1d4+1.

Pandemonium: Once per day, you can create a multicoloured bubble of chaotic energy covering a 10' radius circle. Everyone in the selected area becomes confused for 1d3 rounds. Reflex negates. Spell-like ability. If a target fails on its saving throw by five points or more, it gains the berserk condition instead. Each round, creatures with the berserk condition must attack the creature nearest to them.
This is almost good enough. The reflex-save makes it quite powerful, since few status change spells have a Ref-save. But 1d3 rounds is a bit too little. If it were 1d4+1 rounds, I might consider taking the domain.
Okay.

Time: Once per day, you can create a time-dilation bubble covering a 10' radius circle. Everyone in the selected area becomes slowed for 1d4 rounds. Willpower negates. Spell-like ability.
A poor version of Slow. If it Haste'd all allies in the area, AND slowed all enemies, for 1d4+1 rounds, I guess it might be worth it.
:shock: Slow is a level 3 mage spell - meaning something that normally a cleric would never have access to. What you are suggesting, is for a cleric of level 1 to have the equivalent of a wizard spell of level 7 (Time Control)? How about increasing the radius to 15' instead? Basically It should be an alternative to the Blindness domain. Or we can change the save to Reflex. But, IMO the Slowed effect is better than Blinded.

Oh, and the Corrosion Domain is the absolute worst of them. Perhaps there is a misprint on the effect? A touch attack that reduces AC by 1 is pretty much a waste of effort. I don't think I'd ever use it in any circumstance. If it reduced AC by 1 per 3 or 4 levels, and did 1d6 per level against Constructs(iron golems and such), then it'd be better, I think.
Point taken but there aren't many abilities/spells/powers that can reduce AC you know. I figure it would be really useful to cut the AC of a creature that just seems to be beyond the reach of your fighters. I guess you think it's bad because you envision using the spell against weak creatures which can be killed quickly. But it's not the purpose. It would have to be used against boss creatures in the early rounds. How about having it cut AC by two points instead? Or 1 + 1 per 3 levels but as a once-per-day effect then? I don't really want the effect to be something that you'd consider using only against Constructs.

Re: KotC 2 Update

PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:47 pm
by Tiavals
Okay for Exhausted but then it should be a once-per-day power only, IMO. Exhausted is pretty severe without a save.


*The thing I'm worried about with the Domain abilities is that they'll be too poor to be used on later levels. It's true that I haven't really thought about them on the earlier levels. If the design philosophy behind the domains is that they should be used mostly on levels 1-7, then I understand why they're like they are. But whenever I think about using them past those levels, I can't really think of a reason to do it. But if that's the point, then I guess there's nothing wrong with the domains. It's just that some domains are useful always(like Luck/Protection/Healing) and most of the others are useful most of the time. These domains are(in my book anyway) the ones that'll lose their usefulness later on. Personally I'll always prefer domain powers that let me do things I can't do otherwise(like summon weird creatures or get passive bonuses, or enhance my current spells). If the ability just lets me use a spell I could cast anyway(or close enough) I probably will never even think about taking it. I suppose it may not be a problem of balance, but about preference.

A one-off difficulty class bonus of +2 maybe?

Sounds good.

I really disagree here. It would be the same as Hold Monster not Hold Person. IMO it is a huge boost for a low-level cleric to be able to cast the equivalent of Hold Monster. At higher levels... well it's the same for all powers really? At higher levels a cleric gets better spells to cast.


*Same "problem" as with Weakness, read above.


Regarding the 2 saves - no I intend the spell to force two independent saves. So a creature could become both Sickened and Nauseated. Nauseated doesn't require two saves only one. If the creature succeeds on the 1st one but fails the 2nd one it is Nauseated. Nauseated is pretty bad - you can't do anything but move when Nauseated. You can't cast spells or attack. Basically I see this power as similar to Paralyzing touch but with a Fortitude save instead, and the target won't get another save each round.


If that's how it works, then I guess it's alright. You can't Coup'de'grace them, but they don't get a save each round.

Mmmm... you think it's not good enough? As opposed to what powers? But yes we can increase the duration to 1d4+1.

*Same "problem" as with Weakness, read above.


:shock: Slow is a level 3 mage spell - meaning something that normally a cleric would never have access to. What you are suggesting, is for a cleric of level 1 to have the equivalent of a wizard spell of level 7 (Time Control)? How about increasing the radius to 15' instead? Basically It should be an alternative to the Blindness domain. Or we can change the save to Reflex. But, IMO the Slowed effect is better than Blinded.


*Same "problem" as with Weakness, read above.

Point taken but there aren't many abilities/spells/powers that can reduce AC you know. I figure it would be really useful to cut the AC of a creature that just seems to be beyond the reach of your fighters. I guess you think it's bad because you envision using the spell against weak creatures which can be killed quickly. But it's not the purpose. It would have to be used against boss creatures in the early rounds. How about having it cut AC by two points instead? Or 1 + 1 per 3 levels but as a once-per-day effect then? I don't really want the effect to be something that you'd consider using only against Constructs.
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I suppose you may be correct. As that's not my style of playing usually, I can't really say for sure if it'd be good or not. Would require testing. Perhaps the -1 to AC is good enough, if it stacks. But you could just cast Bless or Prayer or such spells anyway, which are more or less the same thing. And after you've cast them, you'll probably have something more important to do(like heal or summon or such), so it'll be rare to use the ability. I really don't know.