Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

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Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby getter77 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:00 am

Now that there's a heap of info to sift through, I reckoned it a good idea for there to be a topic for people to digest things broadly and section-by-section.

I'll start off the top! (As I go through the lot over the next hours/days)

Player-Character Races:

-Nothing jumps out either way on the ability scores panel, guessing the "set all to 18" option is gone or...?
-Centaur: Would suppose either an additional or random chance of a rear back/trample unarmed attack to be a key inclusion, given the hooves and all. I can see a position where the charge bonus fills that role, but something to spice up the standing game for a quadriped of that sort just makes too much sense not to lobby for.
-Drake: Strongly request the Breath attack be variable as to what constitutes it, be it Fire, Ice, Poison Gas, etc as that is an excellent way to bolster variety on top of tactical concerns---Especially if interesting behaviors are implemented where sensible such as Fire leaving a burning wake on the ground not unlike Firewall, Slippery Ice, and so forth. For max flavour, I'd like to to see breath control as a high/max level capability---in the form of the ability to choose between a conic and linear attack as the situation dictates.
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Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby BlueSalamander » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:08 pm

getter77 wrote:guessing the "set all to 18" option is gone or...?
Indeed it's gone. That means it's easier for the module designer to adjust the difficulty.
getter77 wrote:Centaur: Would suppose either an additional or random chance of a rear back/trample unarmed attack
Don't you think the speed 40 and bonus on every charge attack is good enough?
getter77 wrote:Drake: Strongly request the Breath attack be variable as to what constitutes it,
I did think about this, the problem is that if you allow a Drake to have a shock or acid attack, then this will be chosen by the player all the time over the fire or cold attack, simply because shock/acid/poison is less frequently resisted than fire and cold.
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby getter77 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:52 pm

-Well, the Centaur thing is moreso along "logical flavour" lines, especially given that I'm imagining melee combat to be far more prevalent than successfully "pinball-charging" the battlefield for victory in wide open spaces and whatnot.
-Well, even a Fire/Cold split is better than just Fire, and primarily my thinking was towards future modules that would benefit from it being situated in such a way as to have variety in mind, like a Cult of Dragon Emulators or some such. You could also go a bit past/between the general elements with Sonic, Force, Steam/Smoke/"Cloud", and so on. I figure now that there are enough races for racial gimmicks to have pointed bits of diversity, might as well wrangle what can that livens things up a bit beyond just feat generation and numeric ability scores.

Much more to post on when I can, read it all when it landed and so thusly need to re-read each subsequent part in turn from here, but have been swamped with other things popping up. On the whole, it really seems to be heading in a good direction and is a good sign, by my reckonings, that it gives rise to as many forthcoming rants as I have----sparking up the old inspiration engine for the first time in a long time!
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby quasimodo » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:23 pm

I see the mantis has "quadruple wielding". Does this also mean 2 weapons and 2 shields? 1 weapon and 3 shields?
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby Jim Cojones » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:36 pm

Are mantis restricted in class choice? I remember that in Dark Sun thri-kreens couldn't be preservers or thieves and that's obviously your source of inspiration for mantis.
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby BlueSalamander » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:17 pm

getter77 wrote:the Centaur thing is moreso along "logical flavour" lines
It would be easy to give them an extra natural attack with the hooves, but maybe that would make them too good.
getter77 wrote:-Well, even a Fire/Cold split is better than just Fire
Sure but then why take fire at all? Fire is more often resisted than cold, and enemies prepare for fire attacks (Fireball and all) more often than they prepare for cold attacks. It may be possible to balance different breath types using the damage dice, the saving throw type or the frequency of use, but maybe simplicity is best. Anyway if you have an idea for how to balance several breath types go ahead.
getter77 wrote:primarily my thinking was towards future modules that would benefit from it being situated in such a way as to have variety in mind, like a Cult of Dragon Emulators or some such. You could also go a bit past/between the general elements with Sonic, Force, Steam/Smoke/"Cloud"
Sure for NPCs and monsters that's no problem. NPC drakes can definitely have different breath weapons, with cones and lines and all the types that dragons can have. BTW I played through Champions of Krynn recently, all the draconians in that game are really cool.
Jim Cojones wrote:Are mantis restricted in class choice?
None of the races will be restricted as to the class they can have.
quasimodo wrote:I see the mantis has "quadruple wielding". Does this also mean 2 weapons and 2 shields? 1 weapon and 3 shields?
They can wield four light weapons, or three light weapons and a shield, or two one-handed weapons, or one two-handed weapon, or one one-handed weapon and a shield. Never more than one shield.
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby getter77 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:53 am

BlueSalamander wrote:
getter77 wrote:the Centaur thing is moreso along "logical flavour" lines
It would be easy to give them an extra natural attack with the hooves, but maybe that would make them too good.
getter77 wrote:-Well, even a Fire/Cold split is better than just Fire
Sure but then why take fire at all? Fire is more often resisted than cold, and enemies prepare for fire attacks (Fireball and all) more often than they prepare for cold attacks. It may be possible to balance different breath types using the damage dice, the saving throw type or the frequency of use, but maybe simplicity is best. Anyway if you have an idea for how to balance several breath types go ahead.
getter77 wrote:primarily my thinking was towards future modules that would benefit from it being situated in such a way as to have variety in mind, like a Cult of Dragon Emulators or some such. You could also go a bit past/between the general elements with Sonic, Force, Steam/Smoke/"Cloud"
Sure for NPCs and monsters that's no problem. NPC drakes can definitely have different breath weapons, with cones and lines and all the types that dragons can have. BTW I played through Champions of Krynn recently, all the draconians in that game are really cool.


-I would favor it being a random(Not incredibly rare, not constant, some sort of middle ground) natural attack then versus say, the Mantis general ones. Centaurs are kind of caught between 2 worlds as it is, so an occasional semi-instinctive(Or clever depending on one's perspective) hoofing seems like it would add something nice into the mix, for both player and NPC Centaurs.
-Part of the issue of the resistance quandary has to do with the particulars of the yet unknown setting that leans these things in each various direction. I mean, for example, it makes total sense that Fire breath would be a go and Ice Breath a Comedy Option if it turns out the majority of the game takes place in some kinda frozen wasteland and follows the usual tropes. Depending on how the Breath lines even out in terms of equipment realities and all else setting wise, I'd like to think there must be some way around this classic problem---offhand perhaps also playing with secondary effects, breath patterns, the above mentioned, Rest replenishment, and so on. If all else remains elusive and just fiery though, hey, how about changing the color with growing strength/heat? :lol: Could make for a nice way of showing progression9White-hot bales of flame etc) aside from numbers versus all fire looking exactly the same from start to finish.
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby getter77 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:56 pm

Feats:

-Two-weapon Pounce work in Mantis(Kobold..?) situations or?... Really, the Mantis throws a bit of a wrench into the whole "Two-x" line of things semantically as it can go Tri/Quad---guess it'll have to be something to get used to as "Multi-Wield" doesn't quite sound good enough as a general catchall.
-Improved Natural Armor: At the very least, I would've thought a player Mantis could take this feat given that they can't wear armor in general?

-In general, I would like to see a framework, if not direct implementation, for Quest earned and Racial exclusive feats to swell the ranks and allow for even more diversity.

HP Per Class:

-Looks straightforward to me.

Spell Schools:

-Likewise to the above

Weapon Groups:

-Quarterstaff counting in both the Simple Weapons and Natural Weapons schools? Seems odd, with respect to how feats and calculations would wind up working out and in general.
-Intent on the Range for the Reach weaponry? Also would've definitely guessed the Spiked Chain would be in this group but I could well have an unintended image in my mind on it.
-Interesting to see Exotics either gone outright or just melded into the established general groups.

Armour:

-Given just Body and Shield listings, is the reckoning somewhat similar to the original KoTC that Headgear, Boots, Mantles, Leggings, etc whereby such are generally oriented around "Accessory" norms versus the usual armour/material/etc trappings? Or are some/all graduating into the Armor slate of things but just not worked out to be in the table yet.
-Random trivia from my odder, but successful in that I could prevail, times in KoTC days, but given how Armor affects Dex bonuses and such, what exactly happens with characters that wear no body armor outright in such scenarios---and I would presume that answer to work out the same for KoTC 2? I had amusing and enemy slaughtering times with my naked Fighters with only a Mage Armor spell to cover their shame! 8-)

Class posting(s) after I grab some dinner throughout the night and/or tomorrow as I am starving.
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby getter77 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:28 am

Right then, the power of Ham and Unusual Cheese Biscuits upon me, onward to at least some of the classes with the rest (moreso Magical classes) hopefully reckoned out here tomorrow as the night is wearing on.

Barbarian:

-Thinking behind only 4 available weapon proficiencies out of the lot unless I'm misreading it? I can see how Bows would be less sensible to an extent but that still leaves a sizable number of groups...
-Rage mechanic looks interesting, though I wonder how high level ones will remain viable versus the likes of Waves of Exhaustion and such should that ultimately work out about the same, though I also suppose that would be where teamwork in a party's composition would be key alongside making spellcasters the utmost priority.
-Tangentially related, I'm somewhat surprised there's no relevant Anti-Magic and/or Anti-Outsider practical aspects built into the class outright.
-I assume that a Barbarian with the Tireless Rage feat is still unable to Rage from a Fatigued state? I could kind of see that being allowed though, as progression wise it would serve to make a higher level one more dangerous as Fatigue infliction wouldn't be enough to shut one down from the primary ability.

Bard:

-Replace all instances of "her" in the Bard description with "their"---as I'm strongly guessing it isn't a Female Exclusive class. Wacky OGL guide thing from months ago with their gender pronoun weirdnesses. :lol: Or just "A Bard can use music"...."They can also harm" In general, it'd be best for all class descriptions to be gender neutral in similar regards.
-Bit of a disconnect with the Bard having a Counterspell capability in the from of Countersong versus the Spell Schools section saying only Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid, and Cleric can manage any Countering.
-Same unclear 4 weapon proficiency issue as Barbarian---seems to be a running point with all classes?
-Damage progression for Pipes of Pain seems to peter out awful early in the character's advancement---would like to see it continue to scale up into the higher Bard levels to keep pace better, or at least gain some ancillary nifty bits like Deafness inflicting and so on. In fact, I'd say the latter is a much more interesting function for the Improved Pipes feat while the damage can just progress itself with higher level for "free".

Death Knight:

-This is the first class I would say that largely falls...flat....or at least strikes as not having enough delineation within itself and versus, say, a Paladin which is the common analog by all indications (Or perhaps the intent was moreso Paladin/Rogue?).

It is probably a given, but somehow, i can't help but see this through a prism of a "Batman in the land of D&D"----just kinda jumps out readily like that.

I'll try to point to as much as I can:
-The Sneak Attacks, Dodge, Swiftness, Improved Flanking, Smite----those seem OK in general and fit well, though the Swiftness feat seems to come awful late in life for what bonus it brings to the table.
-Dark Blessing seems especially vanilla with no progression at all beyond the initial +1, same case with Aura of Dread really although I'm fine with multiples not stacking.
-Not so much a problem, but Smite might be niftier if there was also some chance in an either/or fashion for knockback/knockdown alongside the damage while seeming in character.
-Feat progression peters out rather quickly, perhaps something like Bleed condition causing and other "destructive" things are in order?

-It would really seem like you could make a pair of classes, or at least a factional divide somewhat like my suggestion in the Monk quick poll, between Good/Neutral and Evil in terms of the Feats/Abilities. As it currently stands, there's little "tension" from either vantage point/many stated features versus, say, how the Bard is relatively filled out. The Dark Blessing "makes sense" moreso, as it is written, for a Death Knight under an Evil patronage, whereas Aura of Dread makes sense in general either way as a kind of universal/localized Fear/Intimidation Effect. Making it into a Dark Paladin outright doesn't seem like it would work as the Rogue, from my first reading, seems to already have the whole "sinister magic to complement physical doings" angle down.

-So yes, ideally I'd say this one stands to have more time in the oven to a 2 choice internal bit with alignment determining the pool of feats/abilities with BaB and such remaining unchanged. Failing that, I'd say it'd come down to buffing up and expanding upon things as they currently stand as referenced above. For some details...hmm....off the top:
-Name change Dark Blessing to something that could moreso go either way---like "Emboldened Conviction" or some such as that fits in much better with the profile's mention of commitment to ideals and whatnot. Also, buff it logically as the character gains levels and also apply to to competence checks----perhaps capping it out at +3 at high level?
-Aura of Dread could do with a creeping range boost and a slower creeping increase to the penalty...or at least the penalty increase on top of interfering with the likes of Spellcasting.
-It feels like some manner of class-gained semi-Passive Concealment with fit well thematically with the whole driven, intimidating, combatant. Perhaps....passive Concealment until striking a foe? Hard to say, but somehow it just seems ripe for another power.

Hoping to see other people weigh in on this especially as it is probably one of those things where some obvious stuff is escaping me.

Fighter:

-I like the Int modified weapon focus aspect, as it somewhat fits in as a better part of the puzzle versus how the other classes differ. Still reckoning it a bit of a headscratcher for the other classes though.
-Quite like the Shake it Off series in general!
-Being a Feat Machine seems to be a decent enough balance for the lack of Abilities outright. Though, I would've guessed there'd be some Sunder/Disarm action afoot given the explicit and all-consuming Weaponry focus and would say there probably should be such worked into the mix.

Monk:

-Heh, while I won't beat a dead horse too savagely, I still do lobby with zeal for the likes of things I mentioned awhile back in the other topic in terms of specialized Grappling actions (Fish-hooking for Silence, Ear-boxing to Deafen, etc) and such to be implemented to further flesh out the class----Sleeper hold being a good start! 8-) :geek:
-All else looks good and fleshed out at this junction, aside from the quick poll issue.
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby BlueSalamander » Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:14 am

Thanks for all the ham-fuelled feedback getter77. :lol:

Two-weapon Pounce work in Mantis(Kobold..?) situations or?... Really, the Mantis throws a bit of a wrench into the whole "Two-x" line of things semantically as it can go Tri/Quad---guess it'll have to be something to get used to as "Multi-Wield" doesn't quite sound good enough as a general catchall.
Yes, Two-Weapon Pounce would allow you to do more attacks with the Mantis if you're wielding more than two weapons. The Kobold can wield only two weapons at the most. In the SRD, the Two-Weapon Fighting feats are called 'Multiweapon Fighting' for creatures wielding more than two weapons, but I prefer to merge them with Two-Weapon Fighting.

Improved Natural Armor: At the very least, I would've thought a player Mantis could take this feat given that they can't wear armor in general?
Yeah, perhaps they should be able to select it once (monsters can select several times). A quest-earned feat, what do you have in mind? If it's one that is available in the list, then it's a problem as you may be giving a feat that the player has already picked.

Quarterstaff counting in both the Simple Weapons and Natural Weapons schools? Seems odd, with respect to how feats and calculations would wind up working out and in general.
Yes, the other simple weapons like the dagger are also in other groups. If you have weapon group focus in both Simple Weapons and the other group you will still only get +1. You'd have to have Greater Focus in either group to get +2. As for being a Natural Weapon, well, it's because I'd like every melee group to have at least three different weapons.

Given just Body and Shield listings, is the reckoning somewhat similar to the original KoTC that Headgear, Boots, Mantles, Leggings, etc whereby such are generally oriented around "Accessory" norms versus the usual armour/material/etc trappings? Or are some/all graduating into the Armor slate of things but just not worked out to be in the table yet.
Yes the rest of the gear will be similar to KotC, wondrous items mostly. There might be a possibility to give an AC bonus to some of these items to create an artifact or something.

what exactly happens with characters that wear no body armor outright
They gain their full dexterity bonus to AC. :)

Thinking behind only 4 available weapon proficiencies out of the lot unless I'm misreading it? I can see how Bows would be less sensible to an extent but that still leaves a sizable number of groups...
But feats can be used to gain more proficiencies.

Rage mechanic looks interesting, though I wonder how high level ones will remain viable versus the likes of Waves of Exhaustion and such should that ultimately work out about the same
Waves of Exhaustion and other fatigue spells will not end an ongoing rage.

Replace all instances of "her" in the Bard description with "their"---as I'm strongly guessing it isn't a Female Exclusive class. Wacky OGL guide thing from months ago with their gender pronoun weirdnesses. :lol: Or just "A Bard can use music"...."They can also harm" In general, it'd be best for all class descriptions to be gender neutral in similar regards.
Haha, I take it you don't see it as a refreshing departure from 'They', 'their' and 'them'.

Bit of a disconnect with the Bard having a Counterspell capability in the from of Countersong versus the Spell Schools section saying only Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid, and Cleric can manage any Countering.
I'll mention it in the Spell Schools section, you're right.

-Damage progression for Pipes of Pain seems to peter out awful early in the character's advancement
You think it should go up to how much damage? The effect also stuns and bard shouldn't be too close to a wizard-like damage dealer.

It is probably a given, but somehow, i can't help but see this through a prism of a "Batman in the land of D&D"
I'm more thinking of The Punisher, but yeah, Batman why not, ahah.

Name change Dark Blessing to something that could moreso go either way---like "Emboldened Conviction"
Mmm. 'Emboldened Conviction' or just 'Conviction' sounds good.

buff it logically as the character gains levels and also apply to to competence checks----perhaps capping it out at +3 at high level? -Aura of Dread could do with a creeping range boost and a slower creeping increase to the penalty...
I guess the Aura effect could increase to +2 and radius 10' from level 12 and Swiftness could increase speed by 10 instead of 5. I don't agree though that he's too weak on the whole. He's got the potential to do terrible amounts of damage, with sneak and smite; gets very high attack bonus with improved flanking; and lowers the AC of enemies in a way that no other class can do. Do you think he's clearly worse than the fighter or barbarian? Concealment is for rogues.
Edit: I could also give him from level 5 'Healing Surge': once per day, as a standard action you can heal yourself for 1d6 points of damage per level. Bringing him a step closer to the Anti-Paladin. How does that sound?

I would've guessed there'd be some Sunder/Disarm action afoot given the explicit and all-consuming Weaponry focus and would say there probably should be such worked into the mix.
Well, a good chunk of the feats are dedicated to that already.
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