Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby BlueSalamander » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:59 pm

BlueSalamander wrote:
screeg wrote:Regarding Clerics and healing, do you think it will be viable to create a party without a Cleric?

Yes. The Druid, Paladin and Ranger can heal too. As in KotC, the NPC clerics will be able to heal the party, that is, if there are any in the module you're playing.
screeg wrote:If I play without a Cleric does that mean I would have to have both a Druid and Paladin to make up for it?

I don't know. Clearly if you have the two together it will be equivalent to having a Cleric.
I forgot about it, but yeah if you want the healing abilities of the Cleric without the Cleric, Sorcerer is a perfect alternative. So here's the choice:
- have a Cleric
- have a Sorcerer
- or have a combination of Paladin, Ranger, Druid and Psionicist, Paladin being the most useful. If you don't have a sufficient level to heal, you use temples.
So a Cleric is not actually 'must-have' (even if it's the way I feel about him since I like the domain powers and the ability to cast spells in armour).
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby BlueSalamander » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:51 pm

Some more changes:
-changed Crushing Despair to a penalty of -4
-changed Ubiquitous Vision spells to Omnidirectional Eye spells
-changed Cell Adjustment to Cell Division
-changed Body Purification to Purification
-changed Specified Energy Adaptation to Energy Absorption
-changed Limp Hands to simply Disarm
-changed Destiny Dissonance to simply Sicken
-changed Hungry Touch to Life Drain
-changed Brain Lock to Mind Lock
-changed Id Insinuation to Mind Hammer
-changed Telekinetic Maneuver to Psychokinesis
-changed Psionic Revivify to Revivify
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby BlueSalamander » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:18 pm

Tiavals wrote:
Tiavals wrote:I think the Wizard spell Dominate Monster(9th) is far, far too powerful.

BlueSalamander wrote:Point taken but would the spell be as enjoyable and useful, as a level-9 spell, if it was single target?

Of that, I'm not sure. But I do know something must be done about it. It's simply too strong in the regular form. If no one else can come up with anything better, I recommend you just drop it to 1 target.
How about changing the duration of Control Person, Dominate Person, Control Monster and Dominate Monster to one round per two caster levels, or to a fixed number like eight rounds?
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby Tiavals » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:38 pm

BlueSalamander wrote:How about changing the duration of Control Person, Dominate Person, Control Monster and Dominate Monster to one round per two caster levels, or to a fixed number like eight rounds?


Supposing the battles take as much time as in KOTC1, that's not good enough. I don't think I ever fought a battle that lasted even 10 turns. Not even the final battles.(okay, maybe the true final optional battle) (I might be exaggarating or remembering incorrectly though)
I don't think Dominate person or the Control Spells are too problematic, since they're single subject. After all, there are spells like Slay living and finger of death that kill people outright. The chief problem simply is the multi-target aspect that Dominate Monster has. I think it would be fine enough if it just worked on a single monster. After all, it's clearly an improvement to Control Monster, since it allows the creature to use it's natural powers and attack unhindered.

I would really be interested on what other people think about it. Is it just me who thinks it's too strong or not?
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby getter77 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:28 am

-Fair enough on the Poison Arrow example---it is something of a trope of my youth as Greek Mythology was a focal point hence I tend to lean towards a classical "Nessus with Poisoned Arrows". ;) Though it would be a different resistance and such.

-CR Range looks good, and pretty much confirms that Elementals and the few other summons that track with the Caster level are the way to go for full game use---with the others perhaps being situationally useful in early-mid and there as a distraction/blocker the rest of the time.

-Mainly with the Environmental feats it was literally passives to do with the surrounding terrain, with a given type of terrain acting as a little personal buff to competency checks and/or whatnot, not impaired when it is raining/snowing/hailing/etc---that sort of thing. Little flavourful things of some tactical use that would showcase the Druid becoming more comfortable with the harsh realities of nature as the level progresses---getting more into his or her elements as it were.

-Glad I caught a few corrections.

-Fair enough on the water breathing, as my main concern was something like a protracted bit of forced combat and exploring underwater to where it would get ridiculous to not have access to it.

-Fair on the Paladin as well, the spells ARE functional afterall.

-Any sort of "Cover" abilities always seem to lead to healing battery/tanking in most RPG's where the AI's fixation on the one target or so into wasting their spells and time against a focused healing stream to de-fang them.

-Point taken on hitting level 20 in this instance. Really, it comes down to my thinking that the element of surprise is one to shoot for----shaking people from the predictable to spur their interest moreso. Many RPGs do slim to nothing to "celebrate" with the player over hitting the pinnacle of their experience---often due to it being little more than a few minor stat increases after excessive grinding. KotC 2, as a thing, is a 20 level campaign. As such, to what degree does the Engine itself allow for scaling in terms of player level without imploding upon keeping track of it all for future modules and all else? 50...99..some 3 digit number? That kind of consideration...my vaguely recalling something about "Epic Levels" in D&d in general...would dovetail nicely into the level-range you DO reckon demi-godhood and beyond to begin to moreso enter into it---as that helps to shape lore reckoning, module/campaign plans, and so forth.

-Heh, though I suppose this opens the door for Force and Sonic Summons as well----not that such unorthodox ideas seem bad to me in the slightest! :twisted: Perhaps early for an appearance in FWE though...perhaps... (Seriously, you punch that Monster Manual if it looks at you funny----I'd imagine the spirit of the thing is to provide guidelines for DM ad-libbing as it is, so rock onward with "missing" content within the general framework or so as you reckon it. Such things could open up entirely new possibilities and situations.) 8-)

-Oops on the Magic Stone confusion. Mainly it came down to my liking the notion of a Spell "mutually" castable via, I'd presume, Divine means versus traditional Spellcasting to have little differences given the source. For an example likely too late and that could go either way: The Druid could get more Stones total while the Cleric more damaging ones, Cleric's could do half Blunt/Divine damage while Druid half Blunt/Slash or Piercing (some stones smooth, some jagged via "Nature". This holds with Psionics too----I'm generally down with shared spells in name only, but little quirks to the details add lots of personality to the respective classes----not to mention a potentially large tactical boost to the nature of Scroll Casting across classes.

-I echo the sentiment that, seemingly at this junction with improvements already implemented, it isn't about "power" with some of the classes like Cleric so much as it is "Intrigue". All well and good to have Classical tropes filling things on out, but flavour/personality/surprises---these are where KotC 2 has an especially clear shot at polishing up and shining beyond the D&D games of the past that clung to their precious official endorsement rulesets to the letter: errors, pc game incompatibilities in terms of P&P designs, and all. Balance only really goes so far before you get diminishing realities, so at that point what is left might as well be "cool stuff", just for the sake of being over-the-top, game universe/lore centric, and so forth. The swagger. 8-)

-Main thinking on Sleep not having a roll against something is that most other spells that affect tended to---I would've personally guessed a Will save to the point of Willing thyself to stay awake and that is it classed as Mind-affecting.

-Good deal on Reduce, I mainly thought to mention it as the language would indicate you can't friendly target the same was a Enlarge. Plus, this would give the AI another tactic to buff their archers.

-There are definitely times I could imagine where I would rather say, Exhaust a target instead of briefly Paralyze them, or Confuse them, with damage dealt being the same high level across the board. Plus the spell is rather unique in terms of the wealth of tactical and flavourful options it gives...so I'd strongly reckon it worthy of a Feat of Mastery over the Special Effects(but still keeping the higher damage, that could make for a nice CL 19/20 pre-requisite with knowing the spell. ;) Definitely a good flavour-analog to the Energy Specialization stuff as the Color/Chormatic stuff in general is a bit exotic outright.

-Ah, got it on the Spider familiar. That'll certainly have a noticeable impact then.

-[Glitterdust and Fairie Fire] They'd serve as a rather potent combo against the concealed and otherwise invisible, as would I hope they could both be applied given the new Dispel Magic mechanics which seem to strip things separately. Besides, it makes for an interesting mental picture of an enemy covered in Glitter while Glowing.

-Again with Sorcerer, it is as I mention it as it related to Clerics. Likely powerful, but surprises are nifty.

-Good to know on the Claws of the Beast Progression. Though that does I suppose lend yet more math wonderment if a Half-Giant that has been Enlarged somehow then comes to have the power in effect...?

-Understood on the Swap magic

-3 crystal spells seems a decent number to me to consider a Feat booster, even aside from them being unique to a theme versus the other magicks. There's only what, 5 in the Energy sect? 3 more or less fits with the Piercing/Bludgeoning/Slashing triangle as it is. Gotta tempt/reward people to get these Chromatic, Color, and Crystal builds and beyond a proper whirl instead of just cookie-cutter ones that make up the "usual suspects"! :ugeek:

-Glad to see use of Drain stuff not crippling exp gains from combat.

-Good to know on Death urge...let's have some Water Elemental throw themselves into Braziers! :lol:

-On concerns of Domination spells: My reckoning is that short'ish durations should be the norm across them all, with multi-control not really so much being a thing beyond Constructs or maybe Undead. Though, if some battles are indeed going to be long/survival wave affairs, then the "not short'ish" duration probably makes sense as that would be a valuable tactical concern as the party is faced with diminishing resources/spell slots of their own in a protracted large conflict. I might like to see a slight rework where one of the spells is Group targeting, but, instead of control outright it just has all that failed rolls choose a random offensive attack to perform at full benefit on their next action or so and target the nearest foe in range of it or themselves if another target isn't around----something of a more...vicious..."nigh ideal" Confuse?

Lots of nifty ideas from other folk thus far...excellent.
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby Tiavals » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:34 am

If you have a dwarf in the party, I can easily see casting Reduce on him. After all, they get +2AC for people larger than them. :D

The psionic power Expansion is what I'd use with Claws of the beast. You can get up to 2 sizes larger. Meaning, a Half-Giant could become a Gargantuan creature. Then grapple someone and do some damage with the claws. Yummy.
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby SkeleTony » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:55 am

I kind of think the Death Knight should be more like a Necromancer/Fighter hybrid(in the same way that Paladins are a Cleric/Fighter hybrid)...like in the original EverQuest. "Smite" does not seem to fit well with them(it sounds like a paladin ability). Why not give them a sort of 'Lifetap'/lifeleech type touch attack usable 'x' times per day(would heal the Death knight an amount of HP = %50 of the damage done and damage done would be like 1d 'X' per level). Maybe the target gets a save throw at a penalty equal to the Death Knight's level or something.
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby BlueSalamander » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:53 am

Tiavals wrote:The chief problem simply is the multi-target aspect that Dominate Monster has. I think it would be fine enough if it just worked on a single monster.
Okay you're probably right. Only thing that annoys me is that you may then cast the spell and have no effect whatsoever because the target made the save. For a level-9 spell not to have any effect is harsh.

getter77 wrote:-Fair enough on the Poison Arrow example---it is something of a trope of my youth as Greek Mythology was a focal point hence I tend to lean towards a classical "Nessus with Poisoned Arrows". ;) Though it would be a different resistance and such.
Do you think Nessus was a Centaur Ranger? ;) Another highlight of poisoned arrows is the ending of the film Troy when Prince Paris kills Achilles with an arrow to the heel!

-CR Range looks good, and pretty much confirms that Elementals and the few other summons that track with the Caster level are the way to go
CR is not equal to the hit dice though. The hit dice of a monster can often increase by a several points without it adding to the CR.

-Fair on the Paladin as well, the spells ARE functional afterall.
I changed the aura to increase to +2 by level 12.

As such, to what degree does the Engine itself allow for scaling in terms of player level without imploding upon keeping track of it all for future modules and all else? 50...99..some 3 digit number? That kind of consideration...my vaguely recalling something about "Epic Levels" in D&d in general...would dovetail nicely into the level-range you DO reckon demi-godhood and beyond to begin to moreso enter into it---as that helps to shape lore reckoning, module/campaign plans, and so forth.
I think D&D has epic levels from 21 to 30. But I'm not interested in anything beyond level 20... The range from 1 to 20 is plenty enough for all kind of adventures in my opinion.

-Heh, though I suppose this opens the door for Force and Sonic Summons as well----not that such unorthodox ideas seem bad to me in the slightest
Heroes III even had psychic elementals, magic elementals, storm elementals, ice elementals, energy elementals and magma elementals!

The Druid could get more Stones total while the Cleric more damaging ones
Yeah, I guess the Druid version of the spell could produce an extra stone. Changing the damage type wouldn't make much difference.

Balance only really goes so far before you get diminishing realities, so at that point what is left might as well be "cool stuff",
Yes I'm not against cool stuff but I'm wary about extra features.

-Good deal on Reduce, I mainly thought to mention it as the language would indicate you can't friendly target the same was a Enlarge. Plus, this would give the AI another tactic to buff their archers.
Yeah. Although I really don't understand how being smaller makes you more dexterous and accurate with a bow.

-There are definitely times I could imagine where I would rather say, Exhaust a target instead of briefly Paralyze them, or Confuse them, with damage dealt being the same high level across the board. Plus the spell is rather unique in terms of the wealth of tactical and flavourful options it gives...so I'd strongly reckon it worthy of a Feat of Mastery over the Special Effects(but still keeping the higher damage, that could make for a nice CL 19/20 pre-requisite with knowing the spell. ;) Definitely a good flavour-analog to the Energy Specialization stuff as the Color/Chormatic stuff in general is a bit exotic outright.
What about the effect's duration if you make a change? Should it stay the same?

-Ah, got it on the Spider familiar. That'll certainly have a noticeable impact then.
Do you think the familiars are all of equal level, roughly?

[Glitterdust and Fairie Fire] They'd serve as a rather potent combo against the concealed and otherwise invisible
Yes they can both be applied together.

with Sorcerer, it is as I mention it as it related to Clerics. Likely powerful, but surprises are nifty.
Hmm yes but in this case... the risk is to always go for the Sorcerer just for the sheer power. Sorcerer does not need to be balanced versus a bard or a fighter, but he should be balanced against the wizard, cleric, druid and psionicist.

Though that does I suppose lend yet more math wonderment if a Half-Giant that has been Enlarged somehow then comes to have the power in effect...?
Yes of course, but the half giant comes with his own racial disadvantages too.

-3 crystal spells seems a decent number to me to consider a Feat booster
Okay. Sounds good. Any ideas concerning extra Psychic Warrior feats?

-On concerns of Domination spells: My reckoning is that short'ish durations should be the norm across them all, with multi-control not really so much being a thing beyond Constructs or maybe Undead. Though, if some battles are indeed going to be long/survival wave affairs, then the "not short'ish" duration probably makes sense as that would be a valuable tactical concern as the party is faced with diminishing resources/spell slots of their own in a protracted large conflict. I might like to see a slight rework where one of the spells is Group targeting, but, instead of control outright it just has all that failed rolls choose a random offensive attack to perform at full benefit on their next action or so and target the nearest foe in range of it or themselves if another target isn't around----something of a more...vicious..."nigh ideal" Confuse?
Mmm. That reminds me of the 'Berserk' spell in Heroes II. You cast it on an enemy stack, and the next round it attacks the nearest creature: usually its own ally. Perhaps that is what the spells Chaos and Power Word Chaos should do (for their full duration not just one round). Sounds fun.

If you have a dwarf in the party, I can easily see casting Reduce on him. After all, they get +2AC for people larger than them.
No the Dwarf AC bonus should apply against Large creatures (and bigger), not creatures that are one size category larger than what you are. Otherwise I might as well give the Dwarf +2 AC against everyone, since most enemies will be of medium size.

I kind of think the Death Knight should be more like a Necromancer/Fighter hybrid(in the same way that Paladins are a Cleric/Fighter hybrid)...like in the original EverQuest. "Smite" does not seem to fit well with them(it sounds like a paladin ability). Why not give them a sort of 'Lifetap'/lifeleech type touch attack usable 'x' times per day(would heal the Death knight an amount of HP = %50 of the damage done and damage done would be like 1d 'X' per level). Maybe the target gets a save throw at a penalty equal to the Death Knight's level or something.
Yeah I did think about something like this. I've given a similar option to the Cleric (the Blood domain). I might give that to the Death Knight instead of Healing Surge. Once per day, or a number of times equal to the charisma's modifier.
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby Tiavals » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:38 am

BlueSalamander wrote:Okay you're probably right. Only thing that annoys me is that you may then cast the spell and have no effect whatsoever because the target made the save. For a level-9 spell not to have any effect is harsh.


You could do it so, that if the saving roll succeeds, the creature is under Control Monster instead.(though that'd be too powerful, I guess). Perhaps Confusion, as the mind of the creature is trying to be controlled, but it succesfully fights back? Or simply gets -2 to all saves, attacks and damage rolls.
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:15 pm

Tiavals wrote:Supposing the battles take as much time as in KOTC1, that's not good enough. I don't think I ever fought a battle that lasted even 10 turns.

You must be kidding. There are plenty of encounters that take longer.

Tiavals wrote:I don't think Dominate person or the Control Spells are too problematic, since they're single subject. After all, there are spells like Slay living and finger of death that kill people outright. The chief problem simply is the multi-target aspect that Dominate Monster has. I think it would be fine enough if it just worked on a single monster. After all, it's clearly an improvement to Control Monster, since it allows the creature to use it's natural powers and attack unhindered.

I would really be interested on what other people think about it. Is it just me who thinks it's too strong or not?

It's a level 9 spell. The cream of the crop. It's fine as it is. In other games Mass Dominate is an AoE spell (NWn2 for instance) and it doesn't matter how many targets you catch in the AoE. Having *only* three attempts to dominate, as opposed to 5 attempts in Darksun - is already enough nerfing. Maybe one thing: don't allow several attempts at the same target in a given round. E.g. using all 3 attempts on the Balor to finally overcome his saves.

Another thing : Crushing despair. - 4 on saves, will negates is cool , especially as a preparation to make some save-or-else spells work better, the problem is it most likely won't work when you really need it because enemies will make their saves anyway (remember the will saves going to the stratosphere for powerful enemies in KotC?). I'd rather take -2 on saves, no save over this.
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