Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Here's the place to talk about the features you would like to see in a sequel to KotC.

Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby getter77 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:49 am

BlueSalamander wrote:Thanks for all the ham-fuelled feedback getter77. :lol:

Yes, Two-Weapon Pounce would allow you to do more attacks with the Mantis if you're wielding more than two weapons. The Kobold can wield only two weapons at the most. In the SRD, the Two-Weapon Fighting feats are called 'Multiweapon Fighting' for creatures wielding more than two weapons, but I prefer to merge them with Two-Weapon Fighting.

Yeah, perhaps they should be able to select it once (monsters can select several times). A quest-earned feat, what do you have in mind? If it's one that is available in the list, then it's a problem as you may be giving a feat that the player has already picked.

Yes, the other simple weapons like the dagger are also in other groups. If you have weapon group focus in both Simple Weapons and the other group you will still only get +1. You'd have to have Greater Focus in either group to get +2. As for being a Natural Weapon, well, it's because I'd like every melee group to have at least three different weapons.

Yes the rest of the gear will be similar to KotC, wondrous items mostly. There might be a possibility to give an AC bonus to some of these items to create an artifact or something.

They gain their full dexterity bonus to AC. :)

But feats can be used to gain more proficiencies.

Waves of Exhaustion and other fatigue spells will not end an ongoing rage.

Haha, I take it you don't see it as a refreshing departure from 'They', 'their' and 'them'.

You think it should go up to how much damage? The effect also stuns and bard shouldn't be too close to a wizard-like damage dealer.

Mmm. 'Emboldened Conviction' or just 'Conviction' sounds good.

I guess the Aura effect could increase to +2 and radius 10' from level 12 and Swiftness could increase speed by 10 instead of 5. I don't agree though that he's too weak on the whole. He's got the potential to do terrible amounts of damage, with sneak and smite; gets very high attack bonus with improved flanking; and lowers the AC of enemies in a way that no other class can do. Do you think he's clearly worse than the fighter or barbarian? Concealment is for rogues.

Well, a good chunk of the feats are dedicated to that already.


Glad to be of what service I can even if it winds up taking me way longer than I'd hoped, as is the case that I likely won't be able to finish a write-up on the remaining classes today and it may well take into Sat or so. :oops: Buffalo Frank powered this go round! :D

-Got it, guess the Kobold bite threw me for a bit into the mix as the 3rd natural attack, or only one if it is dual-wielding.
-I think Natural Armor should definitely be a player selectable feat, at least by the Mantis(Maybe Drake) and at least a single time. IIRC, wasn't the Dodge feat something that could be taken multiple times in KoTC? if so, just adds to the possibilities build-wise for party members that forsake other feat granted abilities for a bit more base AC in much the same way---always a good idea to leave the doors open for Comedy/Challenge Builds if nothing else----think of the possibilities for entertaining/vindictive LP build voting over on the RPGCodex and SomethingAwful~ :twisted:
-Quest earned, like Racial exclusive, seem to be the missing components for the Tri-fecta of Class Based Feats----though that is because I reckon Alignment/Gender-based feats to be going a bit out there as a reach and perhaps better suited for the likes of Incursion some years down the line. :lol: On the Quest front specifically, it could come down to an additional bonus Feat pick(Still holding pre-requisite and Class limits in mind) that you'd not ordinarily get as part of your leveling progression to avoid the issue of just predictably handing out Toughness I or some such like candy. Truly though, the winning ticket is just to use this as a vehicle to cram in other Feats into the mix for more variety from the mainline+1's on other aspects already in the mix to exotic as such that many of the already existing more ...interesting...feats are Class-based on a higher level as having them from creation wouldn't work out so well. Even for the more...vanilla...available starting Feats, there is something to be said of the notion that if slim to nobody picks them that they might as well not be there. From such a vantage point, even those could get another lease on life if they were hard-earned instead of freely given...and with them already integrated into the game, solid fodder for Questing to give them some extra thematic impact.

As was the case in KotC, though for various reasons, all that glitters loses luster and that which is sharp is quickly usurped---but a Quest earned Feat reward allows for particularly identifying and game changing inclusions that won't easily go out of style as rewards for especially difficult and/or clever Questing. It opens up the possibilities for something like Solo Duels with a statistically superior better version of your Class to challenge your planning on tactics to counter raw numbers against you, a Bard that could teach a Bard a way to work some enemy control/infighting into the repertoire, Arena fights, Party Survival against waves situations, and any number of other things/mini-scenarios you can then mete out some manner of relevant reward reflecting the nature of the Questing. Exp for questing is still well and good, but it tends to all wash together with amassing levels to where a player likely won't remember what caused this or that level and how that shifted the course of their adventure, but a prime Feat reward that opens up new avenues to them after much effort is likely to be remembered and appreciated. A sense of the unknown entices further exploration and gameplay, "Wait, there are Feats out there beyond all the ones I didn't think to pick at creation and not already known ahead of time by class? What else could there possibly be? Things that could inject interesting improvisation into my cookie-cutter pre-planned character sheet? Cool, I'm gonna scour the land!" Future module authors could do much with this as well since it inherently allows for more creative flourishes than rumbling over a gold amount or yet another oft encountered magic trinket and the like. Good vehicle for quest chaining and secrets too, diverging paths due to having a Feat(event flag in a niftier form versus, say, the Wolf Wand that petered out after the initial go of it in KoTC) as proof of handling something beyond the norm or even just differently, and so on

-Right on the weapon and other gear and nude dexterity of wonder.

-I guess a better version of my point is why limit the choices of weapon school skill to 4 choices? I would reckon a general character with a point to spare at creation would do well to pick whatever school they fancy beyond the built in Simple Weapons one versus picking from a subset of 4 out of the remaining 13, again if I'm interpreting it correctly. Would presume a level field between choosing Spears or 2-handed Swords and then let the complexities come from how one acquires what weapons within said school and then IF additional schools are needed from there. Create character, pick at least one weapon focus if not a caster and if your build in mind needs something other than Simple. play game.

-Good deal on the Raging----teaches the valuable life lesson to Rage Early and Often to achieve success. I would presume there are other things that can disrupt Raging though, like Mazing perhaps eating up rounds for it or perhaps even more depending on how the flow of time is counted?

-Heh, it was just so weird in the OGL thing that every class was female-identified. Just trying to look out for you to reel in a big audience across all genders~ ;) Also, because I expect there to be Gender-restricted classes sought at some point down the line of years in future modules, as there are surely some interesting tropes (Amazons, Valkyries, those Poison Ancient Indian Assassin Women whose specific term I forget, and so on) for people to play with creatively---and as such their descriptions would matter so as to bring clarity to future players. This is something of a running theme in retrospect to much of my postings thus far and going forward----a critical eye to "Fantasy World Engine" a tad moreso than "KotC 2" though there is the obvious intertwining going on.

-I should probably take a slight raincheck on the Pipes of Pain numeric game until I can look back and forth a few times over between it and the Sonic based spells in the Caster classes and their respective levels. Otherwise, I'd think the 4d8 damage via higher character level growth and Improved Pipes changed to grant a source of Deafness-inflicting(Really fits the class) would probably hit a nice spot of Numbers and Tactical Effects. It tends to stick out positively in the sea of +1's Feat wise when it is something other than just that too----Adjectives and Verbs tend to foster creative/strategic thought a bit easier than thinking "Yep, got another +1 at my disposal that isn't part of a limited stack---what havoc shall I wreak?"

-Good deal on Conviction

-Swiftness improvement seems solid and without stepping on the Barb/Monk toes in my mind. For the Aura, what about adding a slight thematic touch the intensity of the effect grows the closer one encroaches upon the dangerous direct melee range (+2 right next to them breathing on you, +1 staring down at a slight distance)? Would add another strategic layer in terms of thinking, "Can I afford to get that close?"

Weakness might've been too strong a notion, perhaps better seen as lack of Impact/Strength of Presence/Depth? I mean Barb screams "Raging mass of HP that hits like a truck and is hard to bring down", Fighter screams "Probably so good with a given good weapon that it needs to be out quick else my AC won't have me last" Death Knight, until other people chime in, doesn't quite hit those kind of dramatic notes for me. I would imagine it to aspire to be a source of Sheer Terror for opponents, such that it not only makes their skills dull but their actions panicked due to said perceived impending destruction. The notion that it can destroy anything with zeal, as opposed to only those vulnerable to criticals/sneaking as IIRC would be the Rogue's forte.

Perhaps....if the Barbarian is willful Rage and the Fighter is power via weapons----the Death Knight would jump out to me the most as Death via sheer force of being? Unique passives nobody else has to influence a situation internally and externally in exchange for lack of proper spells...or something. Maybe have it be the recipient of something like a traditionally Ranger-styled Favoured Enemy apparatus(Marked for Death perhaps?), though reduced down to the big groupings(Beasts, Humanoids, Outsiders, etc) as a way to showcase the growing destructive capabilities with level advancement? At the very least, improving like you've mentioned and perhaps my latest tweak to it should go a long way towards adding flair to the class. As a general sideline, I'd like to think no Class can go wrong with having a sizable number of Class-exclusive feats to pick from---as 3 and under is kinda light and serves as a perhaps needlessly stark disparity versus the likes of Fighters and it seems a tad odd in retrospect that the Monk doesn't have any at all! Adds a nice bit of tension to the decisions of "Common or Exotic" when it comes time for Feat selection when there are numerous interesting candidates from each pool teeming with possibilities since you only get so many chances to take a drink given the level cap and whatnot.

-Yep, there's some nice vanilla feats in the general pools for Sunder and such, but as a new feature to the game outright, I would imagine a Class-showcase to especially do them some good and it fits the fighter like a glove----though Feint seems like one that would better serve a Monk or Rogue to school others on. As with many creation feats, they add to a number versus adding to a concept---like how the Bard's Class Feat of Requiem is MUCH more interesting in its implications than if it just added another +1 to the DC or some such. Though, at this junction, exactly what ways Sunder and such could be open for extra flavour are hard to say as precisely the nature of how the base mechanic is implemented hasn't popped up on a section of the big listings same as many other game/FWE aspects to come. For a random example, what if a Trip becomes...contagious, to where there are rolls that have to be made should an adjacent ally get tripped and fall into you/rest of the group risking a partial-full domino fall/chaos in the ranks----bound to be some nifty dimensions that can be wrangled with the lot of it same as much else.
getter77
Gold Wyrm (CR 25)
Playtester
Knights of the Chalice
 
Posts: 367
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:54 am
Location: GA, USA

Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Advert
 

Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby Tiavals » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:45 am

I think the Weapon Proficiency Groups are great as it is. You get to choose a number of them, and it makes each character more unique. "I found a magical Glaive. I guess it goes to the Half Giant, since he has the weapon group for it." It also makes the fighter's focuses and specializations more valuable and less annoying. Since you can't craft stuff yourself, it's good that you're not stuck with a single weapon that you might never find.

But I must disagree on the Death Knight. It's good as it is. You get a variety of nice abilities that make the class fairly unique. It makes me think "Slayer". As your first action each round, you activate your Smiting ability, and charge at a flat-footed foe to deliver terrible damage. All the abilities seem to encourage this, especially the increased speed.

I'm more worried about the Paladin and Ranger. With them being Full BAB classes, they won't be using their spells too much, since each casting takes a precious turn you could use to fight your enemies. The arrow spells of the Ranger make them worthwhile to be cast, but the rest are very encounter dependant, and I don't see myself casting them much at all. As for the Paladin, I doubt his spells will be used other than healing the party after the battle, unless there's a really specific situation. And I don't feel their other abilities are good enough to make the "mere" adaptability of their spells be enough.

I'm sad to see there still isn't a Metamagic Quicken feat. I missed it a lot in KOTC1, since there are plenty of spells I'd never use by themselves, but I would gladly use if I could cast them on the same round as another spell. Is there a reason as to why it's missing? Too powerful? Too hard to code for the enemy mages?
Tiavals
Ancient Black Dragon (CR 19)
Psionicist
Knights of the Chalice
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:02 pm

Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby BlueSalamander » Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:33 pm

Glad to be of what service I can even if it winds up taking me way longer than I'd hoped, as is the case that I likely won't be able to finish a write-up on the remaining classes today and it may well take into Sat or so. :oops: Buffalo Frank powered this go round!
Don't worry, take your time!

-I think Natural Armor should definitely be a player selectable feat, at least by the Mantis(Maybe Drake) and at least a single time. IIRC, wasn't the Dodge feat something that could be taken multiple times in KoTC?
I could see the Mantis and Kobold picking that feat (once), since they both gain a natural armour bonus from the start. Dodge could not be picked up more than once in KotC.

starting Feats, there is something to be said of the notion that if slim to nobody picks them that they might as well not be there
Which ones do you think might as well not be present in the available list?

a prime Feat reward that opens up new avenues to them after much effort is likely to be remembered and appreciated.
I agree. However, another way to make the choices and quests more memorable would be simply to record the main achievements somewhere in the character sheet (Dragon Slayer, Champion of the King, Slave Liberator, etc).

teach a Bard a way to work some enemy control/infighting into the repertoire
It's an idea but in my opinion this would encroach too much on the pure-caster classes. Also I'd like to avoid power creep. If there are quest feats, and they are that good, and they may or may not be at the disposal of the player, then how could the module designer balance the difficulty? Point taken concerning gold becoming a poor reward. The solution being not to give as much.

-I guess a better version of my point is why limit the choices of weapon school skill to 4 choices?
I don't understand your point here. Do you mean the Barbarian and Death Knight need more starting proficiencies? It's just a balancing device to me. They must have fewer than the Fighter and more than the caster classes.

I would presume there are other things that can disrupt Raging though, like Mazing perhaps eating up rounds for it
The flow of time in a Maze is normal. If your barb is raging, any rounds spent in the maze (or Paralyzed, or Nauseated) are wasted. Otherwise, I'm not fond of the spell 'Calm Emotions'.

there are surely some interesting tropes (Amazons, Valkyries, those Poison Ancient Indian Assassin Women whose specific term I forget, and so on)
The words 'Thug' and 'Dacoit' come to mind. I'm not keen on extra classes for the moment.

Improved Pipes changed to grant a source of Deafness-inflicting(Really fits the class)
Mm, not really fitting, because 1) deafness makes you immune to future musical effects and 2) deafness only brings -1 to AC and 20% spell failure chance.

"Raging mass of HP that hits like a truck and is hard to bring down"
I love that description :lol:

About the Death Knight, what about my other idea (I added it as an edit in my last post): I could give him from level 5 'Healing Surge': once per day, as a standard action you can heal yourself for 1d6 points of damage per level. Bringing him a step closer to the Anti-Paladin. How does that sound?

I would imagine it to aspire to be a source of Sheer Terror for opponents, such that it not only makes their skills dull but their actions panicked due to said perceived impending destruction.
Yes that's how I see it.

what if a Trip becomes...contagious
Sounds good, perhaps a 25% chance for any creature behind the tripped one (in a line with the character who used trip) to be tripped, in turn.

I'm sad to see there still isn't a Metamagic Quicken feat. I missed it a lot in KOTC1, since there are plenty of spells I'd never use by themselves, but I would gladly use if I could cast them on the same round as another spell. Is there a reason as to why it's missing? Too powerful? Too hard to code for the enemy mages?
Mainly it is because it would be too hard to code for enemy mage AI, but with the spell Accelerated Spell you will be able to cast two spells per round.

The arrow spells of the Ranger make them worthwhile to be cast, but the rest are very encounter dependant
What of the archery bonus, summon animal spells, healing spells, stoneskin? Seems almost too good for a high-BAB class in my opinion.

As for the Paladin, I doubt his spells will be used other than healing the party after the battle
Mass Protection from Evil, Remove Blindness, Freedom of Movement, Harm, Judgement, Mass Death Ward... and he gets a Smite ability several times per fight. If there's one character class that can survive several fights in a row I think that's the Paladin. Probably the best of all the classes with high BAB in my opinion.
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
User avatar
BlueSalamander
Master Conjuror
 
Posts: 1910
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 6:20 pm

Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby screeg » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:07 pm

Wow, that's a lot of feedback. People like getter77 fuel great RPGs! $0.02 following:
I like the natural rear kick for the centaur, targeting the square behind only (ie. no turning around and using it, does that make sense? What about a completely free AoO targeting the rear square only?). What about reducing it's natural speed to 30, or adding speed 40 later as a free Feat?
The Death Knight in the past was a bit of a turn-off for me, but BS's description of him as a vigilante, but not necessarily evil, turned that around. I like it.
The multi-trip sounds goofy to me, like a bit of slapstick Three Stooges comedy.
-----
User avatar
screeg
Marilith (CR 17)
Knights of the Chalice
 
Posts: 121
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:19 pm

Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby BlueSalamander » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:10 pm

I've just modified the page for Death Knight. Added Conviction, Healing Surge, Greater Aura, Swiftness 5 and 10, and in the feats Vicious Strike. Too strong? Too weak?

Edit: screeg, creatures don't have a facing in 3.5 so there is no rear square.
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
User avatar
BlueSalamander
Master Conjuror
 
Posts: 1910
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 6:20 pm

Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby Tiavals » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:24 pm

BlueSalamander wrote: What of the archery bonus, summon animal spells, healing spells, stoneskin? Seems almost too good for a high-BAB class in my opinion.

As a fighter you could take greater weapon focus, as well as weapon spec 1 and 2 for the bow, which makes him better than the ranger with bows, I think. And since he doesn't need wisdom, his strength and maybe dex are probably higher with the new stat generation system, giving him better damage and attack. The summons might be good, but since I don't know their stats, I'm going on a limb and assume they're not THAT good. The healing spells might be useful, since without crafting you can't just make wands and scrolls anymore, so it'll help between rests, you're right on that. As for stoneskin, I'm not sure. I guess it depends how common adamantine armor is. ;)
Regardless, it takes a turn to cast, a turn you could've used to attack.

Mass Protection from Evil, Remove Blindness, Freedom of Movement, Harm, Judgement, Mass Death Ward... and he gets a Smite ability several times per fight. If there's one character class that can survive several fights in a row I think that's the Paladin. Probably the best of all the classes with high BAB in my opinion.

It's true the paladin is quite good if you don't have a cleric or druid in your party. You can substitute part of their tasks for him. I suppose I don't have any counter arguments now that I think of it that way. I guess I was too fixated on the crafting of healing items and fairly easy resting found in KOTC1.
Tiavals
Ancient Black Dragon (CR 19)
Psionicist
Knights of the Chalice
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:02 pm

Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby BlueSalamander » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:50 pm

As a fighter you could take greater weapon focus
Giving +2 on ranged attacks, while a ranger with weapon focus and archery +2 would get a total of +3 on ranged attacks. Weapon Spec 1 and 2 are only damage bonuses and so are not as important as the chance to hit. With the Careful Shot action the ranger can further increase his chance to hit.
The level-4 ranger can cast a version of Web in which a fighter may remain stuck for a while. Stoneskin from level 13 can help in difficult fights. Cure spells can also help during a fight. Anyway, what would you add to make the class more attractive? Let the archery bonus also do the same as Weapon Spec?

It's true the paladin is quite good if you don't have a cleric or druid in your party.
Or if you have a druid but not a cleric, considering the druid isn't as good a healer as the cleric. And yes, also in situations where healing is scarce, and there will be.
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
User avatar
BlueSalamander
Master Conjuror
 
Posts: 1910
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 6:20 pm

Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby Tiavals » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:15 pm

BlueSalamander wrote:]Giving +2 on ranged attacks, while a ranger with weapon focus and archery +2 would get a total of +3 on ranged attacks. Weapon Spec 1 and 2 are only damage bonuses and so are not as important as the chance to hit. With the Careful Shot action the ranger can further increase his chance to hit.
The level-4 ranger can cast a version of Web in which a fighter may remain stuck for a while. Stoneskin from level 13 can help in difficult fights. Cure spells can also help during a fight. Anyway, what would you add to make the class more attractive? Let the archery bonus also do the same as Weapon Spec?


I disagree with damage being less important than to-hit chance. Especially with bows. Suppose you have a mighty +3 bow and your str is 14. It'd do 1d8+5 per (average 9.5) shot. If you had greater weapon spec, it'd do 1d8+9(13.5). That's around 40% more damage for the fighter. Later on, you might have a +5 bow and 20 str, that' 1d8+10(14.5), vs 1d8+14(18.5), which is almost 30% more. To me that is quite a lot. Of course, the ranger has other benefits above that, but so does the fighter. The fighter has a great amount of feats more, which may well compensate for his lack of spellcasting.
Since the ranger is supposed to be a better archer than the fighter(I imagine), it seems strange to me that a fighter would do so much more damage unaltered. Of course, the spell-arrows the ranger has will even things up.
I would probably add the ranger Archery Bonus to damage as well as to-hit. So, +1 to hit and to damage on the first step, and +2 on the latter to both.
I would be interested in hearing other opinions about the ranger though, maybe it's just that I can't appreciate it's benefits as much as I should. It just seems a little bit too weak to me.


Edit:
A random comment:
The 2nd level Druid spell, Heat and Freeze armor seems far too powerful to me. There's no save, and the target takes 2d6(increases with every 2 levels by 1d6 up to 5d6) per round, decreases AC and forces a concentration check, for 5 rounds. Okay, it only works on opponents with metal armor, but against them it's stupendously powerful. Use it against a Cleric and he's doomed, or cause serious damage to a fighter. If humanoid opponents are much more rare than in KOTC1 it's of lesser use, but whenever you meet them, this is probably the most used spell.
Comparing it to Flaming Sphere, a spell of the same level(which are coincidentally next to each other), makes the difference in power even more obvious. While Flaming Sphere works on multiple opponents, it's only a 10 feet burst, and has a reflex save, and does far less damage, even if you add multiple opponents together to the damage calculation.
I'd probably lower the damage to d4's at the very least, for Heat and Freeze Armor.
(same thoughts apply on the Psionicist 1st level power as well.)

Also, the Psionicist 1st level power Dissipating touch is superior to the 2nd level Dissolving touch in every possible way. Is this an oversight, or is the Dissipating touch description lacking somehow?
Tiavals
Ancient Black Dragon (CR 19)
Psionicist
Knights of the Chalice
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:02 pm

Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby getter77 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:00 am

:lol: I disappear for a day or so and the ideas start a jumpin'! Bah, maybe tomorrow I'll finally get around to auditing the rest of the classes---tonight for catching me up on all this!

This time posting under the influence of a looping Riders of Doom youtube clip and a Tandoori Chorizo Casero and Irish Whiskey Cheddar Pizza I whipped up!

-Good deal on Natural Armor having a place at the table!

-In terms of "seldom" feats, I should say that was mainly referencing the general feats pool that don't tie into potent chains. The other issue is, people tend to build pretty differently, from normal-my weird theme parties-everything in between. For example, back in KotC, never did a character in any of my parties, to my recollection, invest in Toughness and the 3 Saving Throw Boosters, and only one time do I recall taking Dodge for lack of anything else to do as I was milling about towards Spring Attack/Whirlwind. By my reckoning, at least a fair number of players have an inclination towards "What grants me the most options in a fight? What can I make more sure of working especially well? What can I afford to leave alone until later maybe? (This last part assumes they presume that the starting list of Feats are generally it and thus resign themselves accordingly, hence my impetus for Quest feats and perhaps Racial ones as you advance level into a finer "specimen" of the given type not so unlike Class-exclusive ones. So, from a purely creation oriented perspective, +1 Dodge AC will generally affect the underlying Maths, but something like....Improve Bullrush...comes across as potent enough to edge it out for the "emergency starting character kit". Some crazy builds eschew the common sense though, and leave you having to take things just to take them----like my crazy times with an Unarmed Fighter that never so much as touched an enemy with a normal weapon in KotC. I suppose it could be said I'm an advocate for feats in general ramping up from nifty-->bold with no great fear of getting over-the-top----that precise geographic area is where the most interesting things happen in terms of emergent gameplay and outright good times!

Thus far, the general pool feats seem to be "nifty" in supermajority for the most part though, as it was mainly an illustration to help make the case for earning feats via nifty Quests on the assumption that surely various other nifty feats can be figured out to swell the options and allow for diversely monstrous end-game player parties to form with little "forced" overlap.

-Yep, also a fan of recorded achievements on top of such rewards. The more bombastic the pace and sense of pace/playing, the better. Bolero: The RPG perhaps? 8-)

-Bard idea was just a general example playing off the Pied Piper (There's some Feat/Ability fodder right there~) underpinnings of a Charismatic Bard-type. I'm unsure as to my feelings on power-creep, but I DO believe that with leveling there should be fairly regular graduations to newfound power without any lengthy dry spells where the sense of a character is largely static---probably even go as far to say that every class should either earn, or perhaps better have a choice from a small lot, of an utterly incredible gain upon reaching max level tantamount to the fact that they should likely be gating to grounds untrodden by mortals and are therefore literally one of a select few to ever reach those heights within their class/playing out a future legend...or...depending on world lore issues, a patriarch/matriarch/progenitor figure FOR said class that becomes defined by what they themselves wrangled things to be.

In terms of module designer balancing, that indeed is a tricky bit. That said, there technically isn't a rule to say that a Feat necessarily has to be of the sort that becomes intrinsic to a character beyond the stock grand adventure, or even just a Questline that could see it come undone. For a very random example, a Quest reward could have you wind up struck equipping a Cursed item that granted some manner of unique boon/feat alongside some malus aspects. Come the end of said Quest chain to follow, the Curse is broken and the Item crumbles to dust making your character whole again, though perhaps longing for the Supernatural feat (or what have you) that had then become a prominent factor in the adventure up to that junction, leaving them only Quest writeups, and the hope of perhaps finding a similar power in some future adventure that they could come to possess in full. Or on the other hand, things likes this could come to affect alignment issues in terms of "Save innocents/Gain a potentially potent Edge" though such a dish is best served gray and cloudy versus being beaten over the head with it, though the latter is something of a classic. :D Besides, I would imagine there will be future modules that will force a certain starting level for all imports anyways, so for such cases it'd probably be best for there to be something like a "clone" functionality, so your avatar sitting at 20 and waiting with baited breath for some Raganarok-esque module that can get them to 30 or some such, whereas the "you" that suddenly finds yourself in a new land mysteriously at Level 5 and with points/feats to spend on a new adventure goes along your merry way on this alternate Plane or whatever.

The other bit with Gold was mainly to do with how, especially for end-game quests, it is often not what you feel a NEED for, let alone a desire. Perceived end-game is perceived end-times, thus power and intrigue take center stage----though of course this is all highly subject to the economic pacing and system at play within a given instance. Some like the "millions of gold with nothing to really bother to spend" as a throwback to a high score of sorts back in the day, others want still to be in a veritable scrape, albeit one of grander fashion/scale, not unlike their starting levels, with others still something else entirely.

-Weapon School....wish I could find the perfect words. How about: I'm a Barbarian. As I understand it, at creation, I already "know" the gist of Simple Weapons, and then I have my pick of one, out of a group of 4 that is somehow chosen(Random/Thematic?), out of a grand total of 12 remaining weapon groups. This situation is where I get lost and wonder "Why not just say, "Pick 1 weapon group out of these 12 besides simple weapons to be part of your initial character---such that if I wanted to be Bows and Simple Weapons, well, that'd be on me to try and live with.

Otherwise, have I got it totally wrong and a Barb functionally starts with Basic proficiency for 4 weapon groups plus Simple and from there you elect which to actually specialize in? If THAT is the case, then getting to pick said block grouping would also then be swell.

-Good to know on Rage/Spell interactions.

-Right on the extra classes, I meant moreso in general/years down the line/future modules/the engine itself being cool with yet more compartments/etc.

-Fair point on Deafness in this case, though that does give me a crazy idea indirectly----your take on a "musical coup de grace" along those lines? "The Last Thing They Ever Heard"(Well, a better name obviously, perhaps some relevant classical music piece title/Latin-someting) as a satisfying, thematic class-finisher that would be rather much cooler than just a rather-feat-enriched poke with a pointy bit of metal like a Fighter would deliver in the same situation. Such a concept could be extended to other classes for some potentially very nice flavour....

-Saw the new Death Knight page, definitely a step up and now adds a touch of Wolverine to our merry band of fantasy Batman and Punisher! 8-) Makes perfect thematic sense as well. Perhaps/likely strong enough at this point, though another possibility for a feat would be a riff on the Fighter's Survival series where it doesn't extend your Death threshold per se, but your Consciousness threshold so you are harder than usual to bring down to helpless/Coup range and whatnot----"The Justiciar fights until Death itself takes them, the focus on seeing it finished not letting anything short of their own destruction stay their blades"...or something.

-Good deal on the Trip, and this can go different ways too. Such a Trip could deal with Reflex saves, Such an aimed Bull-Rush in similar straits a Strength roll instead----unorthodox crowd control of sorts for the unorthodox combatant in a land of Spells and Swords---and so forth as it goes. Bound to be similar "evolved/special" forms of Sunder and such that can be figured out as well----maybe a fair chance to cause them to Bleed via the the weapon breaking going especially not in their favor? I don't picture it as comical stylings, more of a dramatic surge at a crowd and a way to keep players and enemies alike checked on grouping behaviors that should already be something not lightly undertaken on account of the various...Sorcerial lessons...that can be wrought. Wouldn't be an adventure with undo, overblown sense of security and controls now would it? :lol:

-"Mule Kick" for a Centaur would be kind of interesting, and something of an eventual door opener as you just know there is bound to be something with a dangerous tail manifest at some point to serve as a strong deterrant to Rogues going for a backstab and thinking themselves to be on easy street.... like some manner of crazy Dragon. Also would remove the temptation for the AI to turn around and Waste a Breath attack on it or some such. To get around the rule on facing? Easy enough (says the ignorant guy), have it be a trigger on(ly on?) Flanking situations perhaps then something akin to a semi-proactive rather than reactive Counter?

-Blue is probably correct in +ToHit coming out on top to straight damage, though moreso in my view this is because the damage just brings...well...just that...but the +ToHit mod brings the myriad of powerful Procs that need contact---your Keen, Alignment busting, Flaming Bursting, etc. As I made pure "Archers" though I wasn't supposed to in KotC same as my poor man's Monks----from my first glance now some days back the Ranger seems to have enough to make that FAR more wieldy than what I had to work with back then.

I will make the Ranger my first target of the Spell class auditing that I hope to finally at least start, if not finish come tomorrow. I'm confident that between the lot of us we can get it all wrangled folks.
getter77
Gold Wyrm (CR 25)
Playtester
Knights of the Chalice
 
Posts: 367
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:54 am
Location: GA, USA

Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby Tiavals » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:47 am

getter77 wrote:
-Weapon School....wish I could find the perfect words. How about: I'm a Barbarian. As I understand it, at creation, I already "know" the gist of Simple Weapons, and then I have my pick of one, out of a group of 4 that is somehow chosen(Random/Thematic?), out of a grand total of 12 remaining weapon groups. This situation is where I get lost and wonder "Why not just say, "Pick 1 weapon group out of these 12 besides simple weapons to be part of your initial character---such that if I wanted to be Bows and Simple Weapons, well, that'd be on me to try and live with.

Otherwise, have I got it totally wrong and a Barb functionally starts with Basic proficiency for 4 weapon groups plus Simple and from there you elect which to actually specialize in? If THAT is the case, then getting to pick said block grouping would also then be swell.



As I understand, it's like this: Your barbarian has Simple Weapons, and 4 other groups to choose from the 14 available weapon groups in the game. Say, you want your barbarian to have skill with Reach Weapons, Crossbows, Natural Weapons and Hammers, so you take those proficiencies. For all other weapons(that are not included in these groups), you get a -4 to attack with. So you can use any Glaive, Guisarme, Maul, Light Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, or any other weapon included in the groups you have chosen normally, but if you pick up a Greatsword and attack with it, it's at -4 to the attack roll.
If you choose a Weapon Focus feat, you choose one of these groups and it applies to all of the weapons in it. Suppose your barbarian chooses Weapon Focus for Hammers. Now all Light Hammers, Warhammers and Mauls he wields get a +1 to attack.

-Fair point on Deafness in this case, though that does give me a crazy idea indirectly----your take on a "musical coup de grace" along those lines? "The Last Thing They Ever Heard"(Well, a better name obviously, perhaps some relevant classical music piece title/Latin-someting) as a satisfying, thematic class-finisher that would be rather much cooler than just a rather-feat-enriched poke with a pointy bit of metal like a Fighter would deliver in the same situation. Such a concept could be extended to other classes for some potentially very nice flavour....


I would personally like if the Bard had more bizarre and curious musical abilities, probably in the form of bard spells. Like some sort of Horror Harmonica that causes foes to become afraid(Cower/shaken, perhaps some other condition as well, like fatigued/exhausted or slow/blind). So that the Bard becomes less of a general buffer for the rest of the group, and more a class that can do great things by itself. Though I suppose that would go against the Unique Class idea.

-Blue is probably correct in +ToHit coming out on top to straight damage, though moreso in my view this is because the damage just brings...well...just that...but the +ToHit mod brings the myriad of powerful Procs that need contact---your Keen, Alignment busting, Flaming Bursting, etc. As I made pure "Archers" though I wasn't supposed to in KotC same as my poor man's Monks----from my first glance now some days back the Ranger seems to have enough to make that FAR more wieldy than what I had to work with back then.


Hmm, true. I didn't think of magical enhancements on weapons, only from a pure damage perspective. That surely weighs the point in the favor of To-Hit.
Tiavals
Ancient Black Dragon (CR 19)
Psionicist
Knights of the Chalice
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:02 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Ideas for KotC 2

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest