Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby BlueSalamander » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:55 pm

The final battle without Domination spells is proving to be quite a bit more difficult than I remembered it to be. Last time I didn't have the Vrock-demon there as I do now, but I doubt he matters that much. The tactics for the battle are quite simple. Use arrows of slaying against the medusa and the giant spider(as well as disintegrate). Once they are dead, Wall of Stone the entrance away(no enemy mages left = no dispelling). Any fighters may be on the other side, but they don't matter, since you can resurrect them on the other side easily. Now you can buff yourself with whatever you want. Then put another wall of stone in place, this time so that it allows the medium creatures to enter, causing the grimlocks, warriors and vampires to attack. They are quite manageable by themselves. The Thrikren usually stay behind at this point for some reason. Once the enemy has been slain and you have healed yourself, the easy way out is to simply blast Dehydrates through the 1 square gap in the wall of stone, until everyone is dead. Cheap? It surely is, but so is Dominate Monster. ;)
:lol: Well, whatever works is good. So it relies on you having prepared lots of scrolls. This won't be possible in FWE. On the subject of using Wall of Stone to create narrow openings, do you think monsters should always be able to go through an opening no matter their size (by squeezing)? I don't much like the idea of a monster not being able to reach the PCs just because it's too big.

I'll have to think about ways to boost the other 9th level spells to the level of Dominate Monster, since even with single-target-per-casting-x3 it's quite powerful.
Okay. This is interesting. Do you not think that the full-round casting, and short duration, compensate for the high effectiveness?

Mass Hold Monster is bad for several reasons. First of all, they are merely paralyzed, they don't get on your side. Domination is doubly effective in this case. And since they are only paralyzed, they can try a will save to get free each round, which isn't the case with domination spells. Second, there are more monsters that are immune to paralysis than there are those immune to domination spells. The greater area of effect might be a good enough reason to cast it in some cases(such as a great amount of enemies that are fairly weak, but still not pushovers). But because they can get free from it, you probably won't have enough time to Coup-de-grace them, making the spell effective only as a means to slow the enemy down, like Web or Confusion or such.
Then how about increasing the radius of Mass Hold Person and Mass Hold Monster from 15' to 20'?

As for Weird, I suppose it's good for slaying a great amount of foes with poor saves, but so are many other spells. The fact that it allows 2 saves to avoid death makes it fairly poor. The foe will almost surely succeed in one or the other. The partial-effect from succeeding the fort save is okay since it stuns the foe. But since it had to fail the Will save, you can't help but think how much more useful it would've been to cast Dominate or Mass Hold. If the spell radius were larger, then it might be worth casting in some cases. 20 feet perhaps? Maybe 25?
I suppose it's got to be bigger than Mass Hold, so I guess 25' is good.

Does this mean you can manifest Expansion as a Move action, then use another Power as you standard action?
Yes. You could also do a standard attack.
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby Tiavals » Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:25 pm

Well, whatever works is good. So it relies on you having prepared lots of scrolls. This won't be possible in FWE.


Which was one of the main reasons I always thought Dominate Monster was so good. The change to not being able to craft your own things should be good though.

On the subject of using Wall of Stone to create narrow openings, do you think monsters should always be able to go through an opening no matter their size (by squeezing)? I don't much like the idea of a monster not being able to reach the PCs just because it's too big.


If possible, I would probably make the Wall of Stone such, that it can be damaged and broken. So, a dragon would break the wall and then enter.
As for "natural"(made by the creator of the module) walls and such, I suppose being able to squeeze through would make many fights less about abusing the poor monsters lack of abilities. Just moving your party to a spot that'd be too small for the monster to enter, while it would be good tactics, would be game mechanically quite annoying if the monster can do nothing at all. Squeezing through would be a solution, however I think it should incur penalties for the monster. If it's in space that's far too small for it, it should get minuses to attack and AC for being "stuck". Of course, there could be monsters that would be immune to this condition, like slimes or snakes. Perhaps -2 to AC and attacks per size category it's too big for the square? (A huge creature in a single square would get -4 to AC and attacks.)
This way it wouldn't be possible to abuse it, but it would still be a tactically viable choice.(And fairly realistic in it's own way).

BlueSalamander wrote:
Okay. This is interesting. Do you not think that the full-round casting, and short duration, compensate for the high effectiveness?


It's really hard to tell in this case without trying it out in practice. It all depends on how many enemies there are in a given encounter, how long they tend to be, how far the distances are, and so on. Though I suppose it's quite fine as it is at the moment, assuming you change Mass Hold Monster to 20 feet and Weird to 25 feet.

I think the 9th spells are now quite balanced, in my opinion. As I said earlier, since the other spells have different saves and uses, they don't "compete" with Dominate Monster and as such are okay as they are.
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby BlueSalamander » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:22 pm

If possible, I would probably make the Wall of Stone such, that it can be damaged and broken. So, a dragon would break the wall and then enter.
Hmm. I could make the wall into a 'creature' with HP and DR. One that the AI shouldn't attack unless it's the only possible target.

Squeezing through would be a solution, however I think it should incur penalties for the monster. If it's in space that's far too small for it, it should get minuses to attack and AC for being "stuck". Of course, there could be monsters that would be immune to this condition, like slimes or snakes. Perhaps -2 to AC and attacks per size category it's too big for the square? (A huge creature in a single square would get -4 to AC and attacks.)
This way it wouldn't be possible to abuse it, but it would still be a tactically viable choice.(And fairly realistic in it's own way).
Yes, I like your system, thank you. I suppose that the icon of a squeezing creature should be scaled down to fit the available space.

I think the 9th spells are now quite balanced, in my opinion.
Cool. I will change the radiuses.
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby screeg » Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:37 pm

Scribe Scroll is out? That Feat is a major crutch for low level spellcasters. This means there will be no sharing spells between spellcasters, right? Definitely a major change to spellcasting.
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby getter77 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:21 pm

screeg wrote:Scribe Scroll is out? That Feat is a major crutch for low level spellcasters. This means there will be no sharing spells between spellcasters, right? Definitely a major change to spellcasting.


Even if so, oddly enough, that was one of the feats I never took until I had several complete plays under my belt after seeing other people having success with it---fits in with the "player crafting tends to cause issues" line of things though.

I would like to see more interesting scrolls though as proper powerful rarities not unlike Tomes and whatnot---one time things that may not have unique spells, but may well be the only one to cast a certain spell to a ridiculous effect with perhaps both combat and/or quest solving implications.
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby BlueSalamander » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:00 pm

screeg wrote:Scribe Scroll is out? That Feat is a major crutch for low level spellcasters. This means there will be no sharing spells between spellcasters, right?
Yup, Scribe Scroll is out, as well as spell sharing. That's the charm of the wizard... very weak at low levels and a powerhouse at high levels.

Tomes of magic with a one-time effect are a good idea. It would be like a scroll (of a special spell) that you can use but not learn.
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Re: Fantasy World Engine initial design feedback

Postby Waterd103 » Thu May 26, 2011 2:11 pm

A few things discussed here.

A) Dominate monster, is just nuts, and there is no reason to use any other level 9 spell, Your nerfs may be enough though

B) Resurrection. 25000 gold can be hefty enough, if gold isnt in huge amounts. Making it more expensive could be a solution. Having said that I like MM way of Resurrection where rise the dead was more costly the higher the level. Yes, a civilization of resurrection doesnt make sense, and cost based on level doesnt make sense. But it improves gameplay.

c)One of the problems with, not crafting is the fact that you must hope when you choose Weapon specialization that you find powerful weapons of your type. For that reason Actualy I dont like the weapon specialization feats thing. But I guess wont be able to argue against them.
Other is the module create good weapons for every weapon, that is a lot of hassle and doesnt help to stop the flood of gold that would make resurrection too cheap.

D) as a Ironman mode player, I dont like much the idea the game or any gameplay issue to be balanced around "Well you reload". I know im in a minority though.
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