Request - combat damage

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Request - combat damage

Postby Ikarius » Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:40 am

I've got a (hopefully) quick request- it does not look like I'm doing as much damage as I expect in combat. Unfortunately, the damage display in the dice window is not broken out (rolled damage vs bonus damage and sources)- it's all one number, so it's kind of difficult to tell. Could you break out the damage numbers so we see the individual components?

i.e. I attack with a main hand rapier+1 with Icy burst & Frost' score a critical hit, I have 22 strength, I expect to see:

D6 + D6 (weapon damage) + 2 (weapon bonus damage) + 12 (strength damage) +
D6 + D6 ( Frost ) + D10 (Icy Burst)

I'm averaging ~20 damage for one of those hits, which is WAY too low, but I don't know why it's that low.

Cheers
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Request - combat damage

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Re: Request - combat damage

Postby Ashery » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:11 am

If you click on the number in the combat roll screen it should display all the information you want. Also, 22 strength only nets you +6 damage, not +12.

Like so:

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Re: Request - combat damage

Postby Ikarius » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:24 am

As I posted- it's on a crit, so the strength damage is multiplied- 2x multiplier, so 12 damage.


... followup- thank you very much for the tip- yes, the damage is being calculated incorrectly, though I re-read the critical hit section, and realized I had one bit wrong.

"A critical hit means you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is x2. Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapons's normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword is not multiplied when you score a critical hit." PHB page 140, I can also look it up in the SRD if that's preferred as a source.

So, I was expecting an extra die, and also strength bonus is not being multiplied.

It looks like instead of "strength bonus", when you hit with your offhand weapon, it's labelled "offhand weapon" bonus, and it's correctly half of your strength bonus, but again, when you crit, it's not doubled.
Last edited by Ikarius on Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Request - combat damage

Postby Ashery » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:44 am

Ikarius wrote:As I posted- it's on a crit, so the strength damage is multiplied- 2x multiplier, so 12 damage.

Ah, Didn't connect those two pieces in my head, sorry, XD [edited by BlueSalamander for language - no swearing please]
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Re: Request - combat damage

Postby BlueSalamander » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:21 pm

Hello Ikarius, I have mentioned in an earlier post that I take the view that the strength bonus is not multiplied by two when performing a critical hit.
As for the Icy Burst extra damage, I'm pretty sure it's added by the game, just click on the damage result next time to make sure.
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Re: Request - combat damage

Postby Ikarius » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:55 pm

Well- I went back and looked, and sure enough, there is an older post about this. Whoops!

Reading that post though- I don't see how that rule description is ambiguous. You're certainly free to house rule it, but I'd like to bring up one thing you may not have considered, just on the off chance it changes your mind. It's been pretty convincingly demonstrated with math that dual-wielding is almost always numerically (damage-output) inferior to 2-handers- part of this is mitigated by larger crit ranges available on 1h weapons. I'm not 100% certain, but I suspect if you ran the numbers, that change hurts dual-wielders further compared to 2hand wielders- especially with regards to bypassing DR. I only bring it up because it's good to have more variety in viable builds. I still love the game, and this is only picking at nits. ;)

I did find a 100% clear bug last night though- in crafting. If you enchant a weapon with frost, then enchant it with icy burst afterwards, the frost is replaced by icy burst. If you enchant with icy burst first, and frost afterwards, both will be there.


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Ikarius
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Re: Request - combat damage

Postby BlueSalamander » Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:47 pm

Thank you, I will fix the icy burst crafting problem ASAP. Regarding dual wielding, I think I would take a dual wielder over a 2-hander in KOTC. The attack roll penalty on each hand is only -1 and with all the weapon enchantments, you can do some serious damage with your 7-8 attacks per round...
What seems ambiguous in the rule to me is that it says to "roll again for damage with existing bonuses", how is adding your strength bonus an action of "rolling again"? Would you therefore also add +5 two times if you're wielding a +5 weapon?
It also says "Extra damage over and above a weapons's normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword is not multiplied when you score a critical hit", which seems to contradict the "existing bonuses" part. Is the strength bonus not something that comes on top of a weapon's normal damage?
In any case, I suspect it would make the game easier if I add the strength bonus two times, and I don't want that.
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
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Re: Request - combat damage

Postby Ikarius » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:27 pm

On the crafting bug: Thanks!

On the ambiguity:
"with all the usual bonuses". Are you saying that you don't multiply the weapon + bonus as well? The two most common bonuses to weapon damage are Weapon (+) bonus, and Strength bonus. The other key here, is that it explicitly calls out the only type of bonuses that aren't multiplied in crits- bonus dice from flaming (or shock or frost), and bonus dice from sneak attack. If you had a bard, and he was singing the song that gives straight bonuses to attack and damage, the damage bonus would also be included. What other bonus would they be talking about if they didn't intend for it to apply to the weapon + bonus and the strength bonus? Oh- I thought of a good analagy; if you have 18 str, and a +2 longsword, what would you write on your character sheet for weapon damage? I'm pretty sure that 95% of folks would put 1d8 + 6 on their character sheet. So, on a crit, (1d8+6) + (1d8+6). In the end though- this debate is superseded by the question of balance within KoTC.

On the game balance:
You may well be right. Of course, using the bonuses multiple times in the crit calculations would also work against the players whenever the monsters crit. I won't purport to have paid close enough attention to determine the frequency of player crits versus monster crits, so only you can make that call.

As I said before though- my main concern about the change is how it impacts the balance between 2h weapons and dual-wield.
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Re: Request - combat damage

Postby BlueSalamander » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:30 pm

I've read the Dungeon Master Guide 3.5 on this issue last night. You are right on the interpretation. It clearly explains (in a "Behind the Scenes" paragraph) that the strength bonus AND weapon enhancement bonus should be doubled (or tripled, or quadrupled) in the case of a confirmed critical. It also claims that this mechanic makes the game more difficult.

I would agree but in KOTC the characters can get Fortification (medium or strong) quite easily. Once the PCs get that, criticals mean more power for them and less for the monsters. The PCs are also more likely than the monsters to optimise their equipment and feats to have a very wide critical range.
So yeah... It may be changed in the future but really is not a priority.
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