The trouble with Clerics

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Re: The trouble with Clerics

Postby crpgnut » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:15 pm

To me, the single biggest problem with clerics is that you can't pre-buff for a fight you're expecting. That's the main benefit of the class, IMHO.
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Re: The trouble with Clerics

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Re: The trouble with Clerics

Postby Demiath » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:36 pm

To me, the single biggest problem with clerics is that you can't pre-buff for a fight you're expecting. That's the main benefit of the class, IMHO.


I agree somewhat, but since pre-buffing can become quite the chore in some classic RPGs, it's actually something of a relief not to have to cast the same 4-5 spells every single time you leave home... ;)
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Re: The trouble with Clerics

Postby Gragt » Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:31 pm

Hell yeah, in those kind of games I wish I had a macro to cast all the buffing spells needed in the correct order before a fight.
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Re: The trouble with Clerics

Postby Darkion » Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:57 am

Demiath wrote:
To me, the single biggest problem with clerics is that you can't pre-buff for a fight you're expecting. That's the main benefit of the class, IMHO.


I agree somewhat, but since pre-buffing can become quite the chore in some classic RPGs, it's actually something of a relief not to have to cast the same 4-5 spells every single time you leave home... ;)


Yes, exactly. One thing this game made me realize is that I really hated pre-buffing in D&D games, not so much in older titles (like the TSR Gold Box series), but in more recent games like the two Baldur's Gates and NWN 1&2. So far, I have finished the game with two different parties and currently going through a third run and for the most part I have abstained from using any sort of buffs, mainly because once my group is in combat I don't want to waste turns in defensive spells when they can be decimating the enemy and ending the threat instead.

I also want to clarify that I wasn't criticizing the game design or requesting a change when I started this topic, I just thought to post a suggestion to help out the players that seemed frustrated with getting trapped in the Stockade and realizing that they had used up all their options and lacked the skills necessary to continue on.
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Re: The trouble with Clerics

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:38 pm

crpgnut wrote:To me, the single biggest problem with clerics is that you can't pre-buff for a fight you're expecting. That's the main benefit of the class, IMHO.


Technically - of course - you're right. Pre-buffing let's your Cleric be a better fighter than any fighter. This is how it is in NWN games. But tbh I like how BS (BlueSalamander is too long a word) made it in this game. I also like that not every Cleric-buff stacks (like Divine Favor and Prayer f.i.). Normally by all these Cleric-Buffs you can achieve sky-high AB no fighter could ever dream of. Sure you can still go with Divine Power, Prayer etc and go melee. But you'll have to sac something for it (combat rounds).

The difficulty in this game almost solely derives from the fact that you can not prepare by prebuffing. With the possible exception of the single most difficult fight - if you could prebuff completely, elemental resistances, AC buffs, Stoneskin, AB & saving throw buffs, Deathward, Haste etc just the whole menu... every combat encounter would just be a breeze, steamrolling any resistance.

Sure the Cleric seems to be nerfed compared to other D&D games. The only thing I would change though - if I had to decide - would be that I would let Clerics cast normally while having weapon & shield equiped.
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Re: The trouble with Clerics

Postby math0ne » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:16 pm

I'm trying to do a run through of the game with a party that has no clerics. The main issue I have is that I can't find any way to remove drained abilities.

Is it possible to do a run through of this game without a cleric?
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Re: The trouble with Clerics

Postby Darkion » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:34 pm

math0ne wrote:I'm trying to do a run through of the game with a party that has no clerics. The main issue I have is that I can't find any way to remove drained abilities.

Is it possible to do a run through of this game without a cleric?


It might be doable, but extremely difficult. Since there are no healer services in the game, a Cleric is the only character that can cast Restoration on your party. That means that you would need to avoid getting your abilities drained in the first place (good luck with that) or rely on magic items to somewhat ease the problem if they get too low.
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Re: The trouble with Clerics

Postby math0ne » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:54 pm

That's a drag, no healing at all eh?

I'm at level 12 and it has not impeded me yet, but some of my abilities are getting pretty low.
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Re: The trouble with Clerics

Postby Darkion » Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:17 pm

math0ne wrote:That's a drag, no healing at all eh?

I'm at level 12 and it has not impeded me yet, but some of my abilities are getting pretty low.


Lowered abilities are a nuisance, but things can be even more difficult as you face more dangerous enemies. If an ability goes down to zero a character becomes paralyzed, I assume permanently, but if Constitution goes down to zero the character dies. Which brings up the matter that if one of your characters dies, there is no way to get a resurrection either. What I would suggest is to start over and add a cleric to the mix. If that's not an option, then you might be able to make it if you're patient, but it will be a challenge.
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Re: The trouble with Clerics

Postby some_name » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:05 am

Sorry, but lack of pre-buffing is NOT good for the D&D system. It's just that most games that allow it let too many things stack that shouldn't (cough NWN cough), or they let the buffs last for too long.

A fight that stands as a "case in point" example of this- the lich fight right at the end. With no prebuffing, there's a good chance that you die before you even get a chance to act, which is utterly ridiculous.

The thing that about D&D that only ToEE and, to a lesser extent, Incursion, have ever seemed to understand is that, in a video game context, of course it should be very easy. You have save/reload. D&D is designed for a context where you don't. The actual solution is either Ironman, or a variant of Ironman where when a character dies and you can't raise him, you keep going, but he's replace with someone who is some levels lower (the exact number being based on the EL of the area; generally, you'd want the replacement character to start at the bottom end of the area's EL).
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