Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby some_name » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:38 pm

Crafting does NOT make the game "really easy".

Yes, there are plenty of magic feats. Just like in "D&D with the trademark", most of them are completely useless. Heighten Spell is a waste of a feat (the only spell it's at all useful with is Confusion), Maximize Spell is a waste of a feat AND a high level spell slot (mathematically, it's the same thing as Empower at a level higher), Widen Spell can be useful but is very limited, and there's only one fight in KotC where I'd consider it useful namely, it's nice to open with a widened web against Big Red. Quickened spell is not in the game. Silent Spell is obviously a must; Still spell is nice to have. Spell penetration is ok at high levels but not needed; same with spell focus Enchantment. None of the other spell focuses are worth taking.

That leaves seven magic feats that are actually useful (the Concentration boost feat, Empower spell, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Widen Spell, Spell Penetration, and Spell Focus: Enchantment). A Half-Elf wizard gets feats at levels 1, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 12, 12, 15, 16, 18, and 20- twelve in total. Given that three of the aformentioned feats are utterly useless before ~ lvl 10 (namely Empower Spell, Widen Spell, and Spell Penetration), and you'll probably hit the mountain pass at ~lvl 8 or 9 (lets say 8 for the sake of argument), that still leaves the question of which blatantly sub-optimal feat was taken to avoid taking any crafting feats.
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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby WCG » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:48 pm

some_name wrote:I still want to know why people would not take crafting feats in an OGL/"D&D 3.5 without the trademark" game. IMO, it's hardly a fault that the game "requires" them when it's normally assumed that every primary caster ever in the history of the system takes them.


I'm not very familiar with the D&D rules, so how would I know that "every primary caster ever in the history of the system" takes them? And since I've never used the crafting feats in any other game, why would I assume that they'd be required here?

I guess I was under the impression that all of the feats are optional. And since I like to discover magic items (making my own just doesn't seem much fun - it's too much power gaming even for me), crafting feats aren't something I'd normally take.

If I'd known ahead of time that there such were long stretches between campfires (where you couldn't go forward OR back) everywhere in the game, I might have taken different feats. But feats don't come too often, and when I did discover it, I was faced with backtracking and fighting a long stretch of battles all over again. They were fun the first time, but it wouldn't be fun to fight them all over again right now. Maybe later.

I don't know. Don't you feel that you're losing something, when you can never find treasure half as good as what you can easily make? I love gathering loot in these games. It's part of the whole experience of exploration, since you never know what you're going to get. If you just make whatever you want - and it's far better than what you'll find as treasure, anyway - then gathering loot just becomes tedious. In that case, I'd rather just get the cash equivalent after a battle and avoid the monotony of actually picking up so many items to sell.

But maybe that's just me.

PS. Jebus, there's been two more postings before I could get this one finished. Let me just say that I didn't get a Cure Critical wand from anyone, and I haven't seen shops anywhere but at the start (except for the one merchant who was briefly in the first town). In that one, there's a very limited selection that doesn't seem to change when I return.
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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:49 pm

My opinion:

your wizards needs:
Improved Concentration
Improved Initiative
Empower (can take late around 15 lvl)
Still (not silent, silent you will hardly use 1 or 2 times in the whole game, grappling otoh happens all the time you better have still spell then even on clerics)
Greater Spell Penetration (yes 2 feats, but unless you want Dragons and outsiders and the like resist your spells all the time you better have it, I tested it there is a significant difference if you have it or don't have it)
Greater Focus Enchantment (only focus worth taking, enchantment wins you the most difficult fights)

These are 8 feats. Use your other feats for crafting feats or even Weapon focus (range touch attack) if you still have feats to spare.
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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby some_name » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:51 pm

The catch is that it's a lot more efficient in terms of gold and XP to put more enchantments on weapons that are already heavily enchanted than it is to enchant stuff from scratch. I didn't enchant anything from scratch until I was at lvl 20.
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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:59 pm

some_name wrote:The catch is that it's a lot more efficient in terms of gold and XP to put more enchantments on weapons that are already heavily enchanted than it is to enchant stuff from scratch. I didn't enchant anything from scratch until I was at lvl 20.

No it's not since you neither lack gold nor XP.
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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby WCG » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:10 pm

VentilatorOfDoom wrote:Still (not silent, silent you will hardly use 1 or 2 times in the whole game, grappling otoh happens all the time you better have still spell then even on clerics)


That's interesting, but how would you know that ahead of time? In other games, being able to cast silent spells would have been a huge advantage. My spellcasters were rarely grappled, but silenced all the time, so silent spell is a feat I picked up early. Now you say that it was basically a wasted feat. Well, ordinarily, I wouldn't expect to need just the right build to play a game, anyway.

Greater Spell Penetration (yes 2 feats, but unless you want Dragons and outsiders and the like resist your spells all the time you better have it, I tested it there is a significant difference if you have it or don't have it)
Greater Focus Enchantment (only focus worth taking, enchantment wins you the most difficult fights)


These are also things I wouldn't expect to know ahead of time (at least, I didn't know them). If a specific build is required to play the game, why all the options? And there isn't a good way to set the difficulty level lower (yes, I know that you can start with 18 in your attributes, if you want).

These are 8 feats. Use your other feats for crafting feats or even Weapon focus (range touch attack) if you still have feats to spare.


My characters are stuck at level 9. I'm not sure how many feats they get by then, but apparently it's not just a matter of picking the right feats, but picking them in the right order, too. Maybe I didn't pick the "optimal" build (apparently, that's true), but that seems to vary depending on the game.

I don't know. Maybe this is a problem with buying a game right away? Maybe I should have waited for awhile, until people wrote FAQs for the game, telling me exactly what kind of build I needed? But that doesn't seem as much fun (but more fun than backtracking, I guess).
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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby BlueSalamander » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:13 pm

Spoilers on where to get wands/scrolls of healing:
The cleric in Vanicia has a large supply of healing scrolls and can be talked to as soon as you leave the Tower of the Knights.
Both Lianna, in Torbury, and the Old Priest, in Norglade, have an infinite supply of cure scrolls.
Quoris sells a cure wand with 22 charges and Sunraze, a black dragon that fights with the Slaver Lords, owns a cure wand with 44 charges.
The witch in Corinth will also reward you with a cure critical wand, but only after you have completed Taneliz.
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:07 pm

WCG wrote:That's interesting, but how would you know that ahead of time? In other games, being able to cast silent spells would have been a huge advantage. My spellcasters were rarely grappled, but silenced all the time, so silent spell is a feat I picked up early. Now you say that it was basically a wasted feat. Well, ordinarily, I wouldn't expect to need just the right build to play a game, anyway.


You wouldn't know before - I did not either. What I wrote were my conclusions from having finished the game 2 times so far.

These are also things I wouldn't expect to know ahead of time (at least, I didn't know them). If a specific build is required to play the game, why all the options? And there isn't a good way to set the difficulty level lower (yes, I know that you can start with 18 in your attributes, if you want).


The game was very hard for me the first time too, but after the Orc Stockade I gave my Cleric and Wizard Craft Wand (I guess you have also 2 knights, a cleric, a wizard) so that part was not that difficult because I could heal up. However Wizards have Scribe Scroll so you can always create scrolls to cast. Also note that Dragons can be webbed (in case you are stuck at the black dragon).

My characters are stuck at level 9. I'm not sure how many feats they get by then, but apparently it's not just a matter of picking the right feats, but picking them in the right order, too. Maybe I didn't pick the "optimal" build (apparently, that's true), but that seems to vary depending on the game.

I don't know. Maybe this is a problem with buying a game right away? Maybe I should have waited for awhile, until people wrote FAQs for the game, telling me exactly what kind of build I needed? But that doesn't seem as much fun (but more fun than backtracking, I guess).


You want more advice?
MASSIVE SPOILERS:



In the mountain pass there is not too much to fight after the point of no return. Load an earlier save and stock up on healing (see Bluesalamanders post).
Get Scribe Scroll or Craft wand asap for your Cleric though - keep that in mind. Anyway go back to Mountain Pass fight thru the resistance until you reach the Dragon, heal up, web the area, blast them. It is doable.

Then when you're in Taneliz, just kill all slavers in the city. They are in nice not too big groups and you can rest at the inn inbetween. Sell all loot to the blacksmith, you'll probably end with 300.000 gold or more and level up quite a bit (protip: don't press the level-up button for a while to make even more XP).
Get the crafting feats: Forge Weapons & Armor (let a knight take this), Enchant Weapon & Armor, Craft Wondrous Item. Craft ring is also good but less important although it is nice to have Greater Acid/Shock rings etc when you need them vs specific foes.

More general tips (things to strife for or to make in a new playthru):
- Casters can equip shields & wand, in that case you only can cast from the wand, but you can deequip the wand (have a free weapon-hand) and cast normally while still having the shield AC (use mithril light shield with 0 ASF for the wizard). A let's say +4 adamantine wand with Destruction & Holy enchantments, and enchanted to cast Poison/Inflict Critical/Searing Light is a great weapon for a cleric btw.
- get your Wizard +6 Dex bracers, mithril leather armor (0 ASF) max enchanted and a Cloak of Displacement asap, because he's always the primary target
- Wands of MM, Fireball is all you need for the Wizard but Enervation is awesome too, no save and a leveldrained Dragon is not quite as frightening
- again, Cloak of Displacement for everyone
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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby crpgnut » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:00 pm

One tip that I haven't seen anyone else post in this thread. Cast the protection from arrows spell on your Wizard in the first round of combat. It will stop everyone with a bow from being able to target their favorite pincushion. Now only other casters can stop his spells from wreaking havoc. Always take half-elven spellcasters because they're immune to the sleep arrows that every NPC crafts for breakfast.
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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby some_name » Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:45 am

Stoneskin > Protection from Arrows. It's pretty hard for an arrow to get through that. And Wizards usually have a good enough will save that sleep arrows aren't much of an issue; it's the slaying arrows you have to worry about (hint for the D&D n00bs: have your Cleric[s] learn Death Ward ASAP).
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