Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:14 pm

some_name wrote:Stoneskin > Protection from Arrows. It's pretty hard for an arrow to get through that. And Wizards usually have a good enough will save that sleep arrows aren't much of an issue; it's the slaying arrows you have to worry about (hint for the D&D n00bs: have your Cleric[s] learn Death Ward ASAP).


yes but ProArrows is lvl2 iirc, so you have it earlier. Also high AC+concealment > all other defenses.
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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby some_name » Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:24 pm

High AC + Concealment alone isn't enough; you need some way to mitigate damage. Either high HP or damage reduction. Especially because having cloaks of displacement instead of cloaks of resistance can mean death in some later encounters.
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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:00 pm

some_name wrote:High AC + Concealment alone isn't enough; you need some way to mitigate damage. Either high HP or damage reduction. Especially because having cloaks of displacement instead of cloaks of resistance can mean death in some later encounters.


On my second playthru I didn't cast Stoneskin a single time and I didn't experience problems. In fact it was way better this way. Undispellable high AC + concealment , that also doesn't require to use any spells at all to get it, unlike Stoneskin that you would have to cast on all Chars in combat, is more reliable than using Stoneskin or proArrows. Especially in the truly difficult fights... Stoneskin gives you 15 DR, so you suffer only 20 dmg instead of 35? Meh. That just doesn't cut it. Having 35 AC on your Wizard (39 with Foresight, 40 with haste) otoh plus displacement to boot, without having to cast any buffs when combat starts (except haste & foresight for the most difficult encounters) but instead start offensive actions immediately - that is a difference. You won't be hit 95% of the time. Maybe you should try it.
As for the resistance cloaks - you still can use them for specific encounters, but odds are there is no need to.
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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby WCG » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:37 pm

VentilatorOfDoom wrote:You want more advice?


All of this is very interesting. Thanks. But I thought I'd note that I haven't had much trouble with the battles (the other battles, anyway). My problem with the dragon is that there's no place to rest up, and my cleric can't create healing wands or scrolls. No matter what, you just get beaten up after awhile.

Apparently, there are places to buy healing wands or scrolls (and maybe the game isn't as linear as I thought it was?). But no matter what, I'll still have to redo the whole underground (at a minimum). That doesn't sound too appealing right now, so I bought another game. I'll get back to this one later. By then, it won't seem so much like a chore to re-fight the earlier part of the game.

Thanks again for the suggestions.
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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby Darkion » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:35 am

VentilatorOfDoom wrote:On my second playthru I didn't cast Stoneskin a single time and I didn't experience problems. In fact it was way better this way. Undispellable high AC + concealment , that also doesn't require to use any spells at all to get it, unlike Stoneskin that you would have to cast on all Chars in combat, is more reliable than using Stoneskin or proArrows. Especially in the truly difficult fights... Stoneskin gives you 15 DR, so you suffer only 20 dmg instead of 35? Meh. That just doesn't cut it. Having 35 AC on your Wizard (39 with Foresight, 40 with haste) otoh plus displacement to boot, without having to cast any buffs when combat starts (except haste & foresight for the most difficult encounters) but instead start offensive actions immediately - that is a difference. You won't be hit 95% of the time. Maybe you should try it.
As for the resistance cloaks - you still can use them for specific encounters, but odds are there is no need to.


I totally agree, I finished the game twice (going on third right now) without using Stoneskin or most other pre-buffs and relying on AC/Concealment and strategic tactics, it certainly worked for me. I think that when it comes to games (specially RPG games) everything depends on play style and whatever works for the way you play, rather than a rigid "this is the ONLY way you can play this game" attitude certain players seem to get fixated on.
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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:55 am

WCG wrote:
VentilatorOfDoom wrote:You want more advice?


All of this is very interesting. Thanks. But I thought I'd note that I haven't had much trouble with the battles (the other battles, anyway). My problem with the dragon is that there's no place to rest up, and my cleric can't create healing wands or scrolls. No matter what, you just get beaten up after awhile.

Apparently, there are places to buy healing wands or scrolls (and maybe the game isn't as linear as I thought it was?). But no matter what, I'll still have to redo the whole underground (at a minimum). That doesn't sound too appealing right now, so I bought another game. I'll get back to this one later. By then, it won't seem so much like a chore to re-fight the earlier part of the game.

Thanks again for the suggestions.


OK. For me the combat is not a chore therefore I wouldn't mind to redo this area. First time I played I tried like 5 hours (in vain) to kill the spiderqueen in the cave at lvl3.
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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby crpgnut » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:07 pm

VentilatorOfDoom wrote:OK. For me the combat is not a chore therefore I wouldn't mind to redo this area. First time I played I tried like 5 hours (in vain) to kill the spiderqueen in the cave at lvl3.


This is one of my favorite combats too, VoD. Impossible at 3, barely possible with some reloads at 4, and pretty easy once you can drop a fireball at 5. I love playing that round of combat at level 4. I often die, but if I can get set up in the narrow passage leading to the large chamber, then it's winnable.
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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby getter77 » Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:14 pm

crpgnut wrote:
VentilatorOfDoom wrote:OK. For me the combat is not a chore therefore I wouldn't mind to redo this area. First time I played I tried like 5 hours (in vain) to kill the spiderqueen in the cave at lvl3.


This is one of my favorite combats too, VoD. Impossible at 3, barely possible with some reloads at 4, and pretty easy once you can drop a fireball at 5. I love playing that round of combat at level 4. I often die, but if I can get set up in the narrow passage leading to the large chamber, then it's winnable.


Not to say things won't get very weird and mass loss of consciousness in nigh sacrificial manners, but the Spider Queen CAN be ultimately trounced at level 3.
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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:44 am

getter77 wrote:
crpgnut wrote:
VentilatorOfDoom wrote:OK. For me the combat is not a chore therefore I wouldn't mind to redo this area. First time I played I tried like 5 hours (in vain) to kill the spiderqueen in the cave at lvl3.


This is one of my favorite combats too, VoD. Impossible at 3, barely possible with some reloads at 4, and pretty easy once you can drop a fireball at 5. I love playing that round of combat at level 4. I often die, but if I can get set up in the narrow passage leading to the large chamber, then it's winnable.


Not to say things won't get very weird and mass loss of consciousness in nigh sacrificial manners, but the Spider Queen CAN be ultimately trounced at level 3.


Yes I managed it too now, but with 2 wizards & 2 clerics. So - sleep and soundburst en masse and then some coup de grace. Despite the rather lacklustre melee performance I'd say this was the most powerful party I played so far.
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Re: Mountain Pass (SPOILERS)

Postby some_name » Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:06 am

VentilatorOfDoom wrote: In fact it was way better this way. Undispellable high AC + concealment , that also doesn't require to use any spells at all to get it, unlike Stoneskin that you would have to cast on all Chars in combat,

There's your first problem- you don't need to cast Stoneskin on all chars, only low HP chars.
Especially in the truly difficult fights... Stoneskin gives you 15 DR, so you suffer only 20 dmg instead of 35? Meh. That just doesn't cut it. Having 35 AC on your Wizard (39 with Foresight, 40 with haste) otoh plus displacement to boot, without having to cast any buffs when combat starts (except haste & foresight for the most difficult encounters) but instead start offensive actions immediately - that is a difference. You won't be hit 95% of the time. Maybe you should try it.

One problem with this- eventually, your opponent will roll 20 (or, if they're using a sword, 19). And then, you're screwed. Before I was casting Stoneskin religiously, one crit was usually enough to one-shot my Wizard, especially in the mid-game. When you're outnumbered, and everyone is gunning for your Wizard, you can count on him getting critted. Those 15 damage is a 50% improvement against the most powerful of hits, and against more common threats, it actually does you better. There's a reason why every PnP Wizard or Sorceror takes it as soon as they can get it.

As for the resistance cloaks - you still can use them for specific encounters, but odds are there is no need to.

No need to? Tell me, how do you plan on beating the Lich in the Vancia dungeon without? Mass hold person on the surprise round frequently equals TPK without them (and, I know I've said it before, but that battle is a good example of why prebuffing is a vital part of D&D- high level surprise rounds are stupidly devastating without it).
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