Orc Stockade (minor spoiler)

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Re: Orc Stockade (minor spoiler)

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:44 pm

do you have access to lvl8 arcane spell Control Monster or Irrestistible Dance? If yes scribe scrolls of it and try this
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Re: Orc Stockade (minor spoiler)

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Re: Orc Stockade (minor spoiler)

Postby Archangel » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:47 pm

Well I only noticed two player hating parts in this game:
1. Levels in different dungeons that trap you inside and then give you zero campfires.
2. Encounters where for some reason opponents that you run straight into (not encounters where you fall down or walls suddenly disappear around you) for some reason get a surprise round. And "by accident" enemies in those encounters are wizards and they fill you full of holes even before you get your first chance to act :D
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Re: Orc Stockade (minor spoiler)

Postby Noumenon » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:55 pm

Hey, thanks a lot for the tip, Ventilator. I hadn't been using scrolls at all because they take up so much space in your inventory and in the SRD you have to expend a spell to write a scroll and even though I knew wands changed in this game I never thought about scrolls. So I can get multiple high level spells back that way -- awesome! Maybe I can get out of this dungeon after all. It will take a while, though.
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Re: Orc Stockade (minor spoiler)

Postby Archangel » Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:16 pm

Noumenon wrote:Hey, thanks a lot for the tip, Ventilator. I hadn't been using scrolls at all because they take up so much space in your inventory and in the SRD you have to expend a spell to write a scroll and even though I knew wands changed in this game I never thought about scrolls. So I can get multiple high level spells back that way -- awesome! Maybe I can get out of this dungeon after all. It will take a while, though.

That is the only way to have any spells with wizards in multiple dungeons in this game. Personally I do not like it and hope the next game will design the dungeons in a way that this (exploit) design is not needed.
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Re: Orc Stockade (minor spoiler)

Postby Noumenon » Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:54 pm

I thought of a way to get across the importance of crafting in this game as opposed to D&D proper. How about the first time you gain a level with new spells, pop up a tool-tip:
"You now have access to new spells! You can't cast them from memory until you rest at a campfire, but remember that you can use the "Craft Wand" or "Scribe Scroll" command to create items from them that will be usable right away." I think that would help people realize that getting stuck between campfires is not the end of the world, and that the crafting feats would be helpful ones to take when you get a chance.
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Re: Orc Stockade (minor spoiler)

Postby BlueSalamander » Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:55 pm

That is not good design IMO. You don't punish the player for exploring by saying "You did this too early, now you can never finish the full game or explore any rooms you skipped and wanted to come back to later." It's as though Grand Theft Auto had a mission where if you did it all of a sudden you couldn't visit the third island ever again.
(...)
It was a fun dungeon, though. I liked having everything undead because it let me equip my Disrupting weapon permanently, made me use my anti-undead spells sparingly and made me craft stuff out of silver and cold iron instead of just using my weapons I'd been using for hours. And even though being trapped in there is frustrating, it turned out to be a perfectly designed challenge for my party that really made me optimize my tactics to win. It's a nice microcosm of the strengths and the weaknesses of this awesome, player-hating game.
I must say I don't quite understand your point. It's too hard, but at the same time it's a perfectly designed challenge for your party? Isn't the fact that you can't go back a good enough warning for lower level parties?

That is the only way to have any spells with wizards in multiple dungeons in this game. Personally I do not like it and hope the next game will design the dungeons in a way that this (exploit) design is not needed.
Point taken, but I don't see why (even in Pen & Paper) you wizard shouldn't be allowed to scribe a few scrolls between encounters.

"You now have access to new spells! You can't cast them from memory until you rest at a campfire, but remember that you can use the "Craft Wand" or "Scribe Scroll" command to create items from them that will be usable right away."
Yes, good idea.
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
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Re: Orc Stockade (minor spoiler)

Postby Archangel » Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:12 pm

BlueSalamander wrote:
That is the only way to have any spells with wizards in multiple dungeons in this game. Personally I do not like it and hope the next game will design the dungeons in a way that this (exploit) design is not needed.
Point taken, but I don't see why (even in Pen & Paper) you wizard shouldn't be allowed to scribe a few scrolls between encounters.

Yes he can, but not in the middle of a dungeon. In PnP encounters and dungeons are not designed for characters to take one day off inside to create some magic items. Do that and the whole dungeon comes to kill you while you are creating stuff. He can with appropriate spells like Magnificent Mansion and such, but he can also rest there and regain all spell spent.
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Re: Orc Stockade (minor spoiler)

Postby Noumenon » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:46 pm

Sorry I got too personal with the insulting language there, Salamander. I post sometimes on Enworld.org, where there is a long tradition of love-hate relationships with the DM such that the term "rat bastard DM!" is a badge of honor and not just an insult. But I am being kind of insulting too, I apologize. Kind of like how some games make you throw your controller at the screen, it doesn't mean you quit playing, you just want to take it out on the source of your agony.

I must say I don't quite understand your point. It's too hard, but at the same time it's a perfectly designed challenge for your party? Isn't the fact that you can't go back a good enough warning for lower level parties?


It's because the difficulty scales up slowly -- in fact, it starts with two CR 4s or 6s. If the Glade that's guarded by an iron golem told me "you can't go back," I'd be like "I'm outta here -- I barely beat the opening guy!" But I took the warnings to say "a bunch more CR 16s up ahead." That challenge I was ready for -- even with the twist of the extra lich encounter.

I was really only complaining about the Balor, and only because I felt like I was being forced to do the impossible or reload three hours -- because I couldn't ever come back, because it was so much harder than I could handle, because it had the Chalice so I felt I had to beat it, because I couldn't replenish my spells. The rest of the dungeon was fine -- in fact, it's quite an achievement to challenge 16th level characters that well in D&D 3.5. But it was set up as a "make it to the exit" gauntlet and "super hard encounter" doesn't fit well into that.

I just beat the Balor using Ventilator's tip (no way I could have done it with the resources I thought I had) so that means basically the whole dungeon is an OK design for people playing optimally, but... I just think players should be allowed to wander around without worrying that they're going to get into a one-way street that looks fine from where they are, but has a bridge out around the next bend. And you shouldn't put optional encounters in dungeons people can't come back to.
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Re: Orc Stockade (minor spoiler)

Postby BlueSalamander » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:20 pm

All right, I see your point. The Chalice is optional, though, and simply had to be very well guarded and in a unique location, or else the other Knights would have recovered it already.
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
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Re: Orc Stockade (minor spoiler)

Postby Noumenon » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:58 pm

I might've had a clue the chalice was in there or that it was a one-time deal if I had gone "in order" but since I got back from Taneliz I just went wandering into all the spots on the map, so I'm in the position of having beaten the lich and recovered the Chalice without anyone ever having asked me to do that or warned me how heavily they're guarded. The Knights don't even want the chalice back yet, they're still on about showing the giants' scroll to Cassam.

ps My second time through against the Lich my fighter got the initiative roll, ran up and whacked the lich one time and the lich died right there from Disrupting. What a totally different experience from the squeaker win! I was using that same mace all the other times I saved and reloaded but he never failed the save.
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