Bug?

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Re: Bug?

Postby erkper » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:35 am

Archangel wrote:I should not need to. Spells Protection from Evil (and better versions) and Mind Blank were put into PnP just for this occasion. This is a stupid design that only is here to punish players. Actually if prebuffing was allowed my party would have Mass Prot from Evil and some Mind Blank and there would be no problems to begin with.


That right there is your problem. Prot from Evil, Mind Blank, etc are buff spells, they do nothing to dispel effects already on a character. If your p'n'p DM allowed those spells to remove preexisting effects, IMO you had a very, very lenient DM who made things waaay too easy for you. Use Dispel as it was intended if you want to get rid of the Dominate effect on your character.
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Re: Bug?

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Re: Bug?

Postby quasimodo » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:52 am

I really like the way the game currently works, but I'm not a PNP gamer so I have no preconcieved notion of how it should play out.
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Re: Bug?

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:24 am

Pro Evil, Mindblank etc protect you from being dominated, they don't remove (heal) such an effect from a target. Counter with charm, dominate of your own or dispel the effect.
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Re: Bug?

Postby Archangel » Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:29 am

VentilatorOfDoom wrote:Pro Evil, Mindblank etc protect you from being dominated, they don't remove (heal) such an effect from a target. Counter with charm, dominate of your own or dispel the effect.

All the things you mentioned work of Will save, the one that I make sure all my characters have plenty. My spells have the same low chance of working as the enemies do.

Anyways, I was talking how in PnP dominate/charm can be removed in other ways. Mind Blank is especially useless spell then if it cannot be cast before the fight (it should because in PnP it is a 24h lasting spell) and it cannot be cast on a already dominated/charmed person. For a buff against such spells Mass Protection from Evil works much better and it a much lower level.
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Re: Bug?

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:03 am

Well it's not like that is such an enormous problem, is it? The only helmets in game are Wisdom helmets, so even your fighter will have better Will saves than usual, the whole scenario how often did it happen? I remember it happened once to me, I ran in circles until the spell wore off. Problem solved. Although I'm not opposed to the idea that once all enemies are dead the domination wears off or at least the combat ends - that's how it worked in Wiz8, where your party member still had the condition (insane, dominated, whatever) but would no longer fight the rest of the party.
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Re: Bug?

Postby BlueSalamander » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:16 pm

Archangel wrote:Mind Blank is especially useless spell then if it cannot be cast before the fight (it should because in PnP it is a 24h lasting spell) and it cannot be cast on a already dominated/charmed person. For a buff against such spells Mass Protection from Evil works much better and it a much lower level.
Mind Blank protects against many more effects than just domination. And Archangel, please moderate your language. This and that is not "stupid" simply because you don't like it.
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Re: Bug?

Postby Archangel » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:21 pm

BlueSalamander wrote:
Archangel wrote:Mind Blank is especially useless spell then if it cannot be cast before the fight (it should because in PnP it is a 24h lasting spell) and it cannot be cast on a already dominated/charmed person. For a buff against such spells Mass Protection from Evil works much better and it a much lower level.
Mind Blank protects against many more effects than just domination. And Archangel, please moderate your language. This and that is not "stupid" simply because you don't like it.

OK, I should have said I find it stupid or something (which really means I really do not like it). I was not insulting you (I really like this game and would like to see it improved where possible), but I completely cannot agree on this design decision. This needlessly makes enchantment spells stronger then they should be.
Mind Blank is an OK spell if it can be cast outside of combat. At this moment it is useless in this game.

If you can change so it can be cast before combat (like Mage Armor) it would become useful. If you are afraid of the whole party having immunity to many effects disallow from making scrolls from that spell. In that case wizards will have to use their high level slots to cast it and that is worthy cost of having it on everyone (or just some). Or give us an option in the setting if we want to be able to cast in outside of combat.
As it is, I will ALWAYS cast Mass Protection from Evil then this spell. Actually in my next play through I will not even take the spell anymore. Only in parties with no clerics or if the cleric is out of combat wizard can consider casting this spell. Those situations are really rare.
Really look at the spell and look at the Mass Protection from Evil (a lvl 3 spell) and tell me Mind Blank is not too weak?

Also another option is to stop combat as soon as your charmed party member is the only enemy left standing.

I need too add that combat ending as soon as only charmed and dominated enemies are left is no fun. First of all, any attack from any of your party members on those characters should either remove the charm immediately or give another save (for dominate). So once you take care of other enemies you still need to kill these. In some cases this could be a problem and could change the outcome of the battle.
I know this might be a design decision or a limit of the engine but please consider this.
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Re: Bug?

Postby Narsham » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:54 pm

Archangel wrote:[I should not need to. Spells Protection from Evil (and better versions) and Mind Blank were put into PnP just for this occasion. This is a bad design that only is here to punish players. Actually if prebuffing was allowed my party would have Mass Prot from Evil and some Mind Blank and there would be no problems to begin with.

Furthermore if YOU dominate enemies and kill other nondominated opponents combat stops there and then. At least make the combat stop once you kill all opponents.

Furthermore when the person that cast the spell dies the domination or charm ends as there is nobody to control the character anymore.

Please implement one of these options (and if people want this harder version it can be another option in the settings).

[Edited by BlueSalamander for language.]


Setting aside part of my point--that while you obviously don't like how Blue Salamander dealt with domination, other people enjoyed solving the additional problems--I wonder what it is about this particular arm of challenge you object to. Allow auto-prep of Mass Prot Evil and Mass Death Ward, and no enemies with death effects or charm effects can use those powers at all against the PCs. That potentially eliminates a fairly broad range of monsters, unless the DM counters with Dispel Magic volleys in the first few rounds of combat.

I don't see how "prep 4 Mind Blasts, enter combat, have prep spells dispelled" makes for a better game.

That said, Blue Salamander added the option to use 3.5 crits or his house-ruled crits. He could do the same to allow the option of Prot Evil or Mind Blank protecting against domination effects which are already in place.
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Re: Bug?

Postby VentilatorOfDoom » Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:25 pm

no, you can't make an option in the settings for every inane demand, especially if it's that insignificant
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Re: Bug?

Postby Archangel » Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:31 pm

VentilatorOfDoom wrote:no, you can't make an option in the settings for every inane demand, especially if it's that insignificant

Well it is no more insignificant then multipling strength on criticals. Also for Ironman mode, where you cannot just reload your save when your character gets dominated and you cannot do anything to stop it, it is pretty important.
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