KotC 2 Update

Here's the place to talk about the features you would like to see in a sequel to KotC.

Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby Greymark » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:55 pm

BlueSalamander wrote:
Tiavals wrote:Suppose you choose the weapon focus and specialization feats for a weapon group that doesn't really have any good weapons in it, that can be found or bought.
As long as one of your specializations is One-Handed Swords or Two-Handed Swords, you should be fine. Clearly there will always be good weapons of these types.

I wish you were joking here. Personally I hate how swords dominate almost every fantasy game since the dawn of time. I'd like for each weapon group to be equally represented. Not to say there have to be every variety of enchantment for every weapon type, just that there are 3 fantastic axes in the game, 3 swords, 3 spears, etc. instead of 20 fabulous swords. Having NPC crafters might be a good option to break things up a bit, so if I specialize in two-hand axes I can go to a crafter to get an enchanted one. It would also work as an economic balance, ie. a place to spend your 100,000 extra gp that you always seem to end up with.



Yeah ... I have to say I agree. I never understood the point of feats/specializations for weapon classes that were exciting and different as options, only to find out as the game unfolds that these weapons are either non-existent or game breakingly bad. If the game design choice is to not have a good selection of weapons available then why even include the additional feats? From my perspective you are setting up a situation where the player is disappointed because an early game choice/feature fails to deliver.
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Re: KotC 2 Update

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Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby BlueSalamander » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:41 pm

Tiavals wrote:The problem is, I probably wouldn't take either group for a Fighter, since there are more interesting weapons to choose from. Swords just do damage, while many other weapons(apparently) have other bonuses, which are usually better for the Fighter with his feats.
You could always keep a good sword for damage and switch to the more unusual weapon types before executing a special action.

shaogul wrote:some kind of particle splatter ala hellheron would be very cool
Yes, the blood stains on the level's floor. I know what you mean.

screeg wrote:I was just surprised you dropped crafting and I missed it.
Two things are problematic with crafting. First, every weapon must be unique because every weapon can potentially gain new attributes. So you can't just say: all these orcs are using a flaming longsword +1. You have to say: orc number 1 uses flaming longsword number 1, orc 2 uses longsword 2, etc. Secondly, when crafting is available item drops just aren't as good as they ought to be. You find a +2 wounding sword, no big deal since you can already craft +3 holy.

screeg wrote:I wish you were joking here. Personally I hate how swords dominate almost every fantasy game since the dawn of time. I'd like for each weapon group to be equally represented. Not to say there have to be every variety of enchantment for every weapon type, just that there are 3 fantastic axes in the game, 3 swords, 3 spears, etc. instead of 20 fabulous swords. Having NPC crafters might be a good option to break things up a bit, so if I specialize in two-hand axes I can go to a crafter to get an enchanted one. It would also work as an economic balance, ie. a place to spend your 100,000 extra gp that you always seem to end up with.
Axes are the second most popular group after swords so you're guaranteed to find good axes too. However, being realistic, one can't expect to always find a weapon at exactly the right power level in every weapon group. When you design a module you try to give a variety of weapons, some groups you may forget about, but not the sword group. That doesn't mean groups like Flails or Spears aren't useful to have. They can turn out to be very useful but it's risky to concentrate on them only. And in the early levels, there are no magic items, so you will find equivalent weapons in all groups.
For the economic balance, good weapons and other good items could be sold at NPC stores for a high price. Whether the crafting is done by the PCs or the NPCs, to me it makes no difference, it's the same problem.
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Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby screeg » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:49 pm

Still on the prevalence of swords, you say:
being realistic, one can't expect to always find a weapon at exactly the right power level in every weapon group

I agree 100%. But your solution is to make swords ubiquitous so the player can always find the enchanted sword he needs. There doesn't need to be a solution. The player is going to need a Silver weapon at some point. So provide a random silver weapon: an axe, a spear, whatever. If the player finds three silver weapons and none of them happen to be swords, so what? A fighter can still use a spear regardless of his weapon specialization.

Saying those other weapons might be useful at lower levels misses the point completely. Why invest in Polearms if you know that the enchanted drops are mostly going to be swords? Picking a weapon feat is a decision that influences the entire game, not just the first few pre-enchanted-weapon levels. By making swords and axes the "preferred" weapons classes, you make all the work you've invested in other, stranger weapons a lot less worthwhile. Finally, the player who specializes in swords will be that much happier when he finds the longsword +2 he always wanted, because it will be rare and unusual, like a magic weapon should be, not something he expects to come down the pike every other battle. Please consider breaking with long and tedious tradition.

DOWN WITH THE TYRANNY OF SWORDS!!!!

Regarding crafting, what you say makes sense.
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Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby Tiavals » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:03 pm

KOTC2 is still going to be a module based game, where users can contribute their own modules, right?

If so, then it isn't that big of a deal, since different module creators can of course make their own weapons, many of whom will certainly discriminate against swords, evening it out.

Though it'd sure be nice if the main module had a great variance in weapons, but I guess you can't have everything.

Which brings to my mind; you're going to make a series of modules that goes from level 1 to level 20, right BlueSalamander? Will they be connected by a greater plot, or will they be more or less completely seperate, and you can just import your characters between them?
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Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby BlueSalamander » Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:13 pm

But your solution is to make swords ubiquitous so the player can always find the enchanted sword he needs.
It's not really my solution... Just something I have observed from playing computer RPGs, like Ultima Underworld or Dark Sun. The sword is the most beloved fantasy weapon. How often do you think a warrior of legend would be using a Scythe as his favourite weapon? How many kings would go to war with a halberd or trident? If you put a trident, guisarme or crossbow in an ancient tomb, it's just weird...

Why invest in Polearms if you know that the enchanted drops are mostly going to be swords?
Because you already have the specialization in swords, and you know that one of the bad guys uses a nifty polearm? ;)

By making swords and axes the "preferred" weapons classes
I'm not planning to make them any more 'preferred' than they were in KotC.

DOWN WITH THE TYRANNY OF SWORDS!!!!
:lol:

KOTC2 is still going to be a module based game, where users can contribute their own modules, right?
That's the objective, yes.

you're going to make a series of modules that goes from level 1 to level 20, right BlueSalamander? Will they be connected by a greater plot, or will they be more or less completely seperate, and you can just import your characters between them?
The objective is to have modules that go from 1 to 20. I can't say whether there will be a campaign that goes all the way from 1 to 20. It doesn't have to.
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Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby screeg » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:49 pm

BlueSalamander wrote:It's not really my solution... Just something I have observed from playing computer RPGs, like Ultima Underworld or Dark Sun. The sword is the most beloved fantasy weapon. How often do you think a warrior of legend would be using a Scythe as his favourite weapon?

Well, we have differing points of view. When I see something done the same way 10,000 time I think it's a cliche. It may be true that in RL swords were beloved because they were the most versatile and best at plain old killing, but when I see magic sword after magic sword in a game I just think the developer is being lazy, doing it the same way everyone else does it just because that's how its always been done.

I know BS can deliver a solid, enjoyable RPG and I'm counting on it. As for player-built modules, naturally I would love for that aspect of the game to take off, NWN-style, but it's impossible to predict. KotC has a pretty small community right now and I never thought the game got as much exposure as it deserves.
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Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby SilentLion » Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:57 pm

I personally don't have a problem with the "tyranny of swords" (I agree with BlueSalamander that they are the weapons of legends), but occasional randomized enchanted weapon drops and/or part of shop selection being randomized would give the "exotic" weapon group users a chance to grab a good weapon. Not sure how hard that is to implement neatly.
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Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby getter77 » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:44 am

SilentLion wrote: occasional randomized enchanted weapon drops and/or part of shop selection being randomized would give the "exotic" weapon group users a chance to grab a good weapon.


I like these, though especially moreso the latter.

Again, I lobby for my solution in Blacksmith/Alchemist terms as a way to get around this. Want a Silver Chain but only a Silver Sword has turned up? Time to pay or Quest along to a meltdown/reforge. Same thing with enchantments. Little else seems like it wouldn't harm one thing or another as the "punishment" of having to fight or some such a bit more to better align weapons/armor with specializations seems far more approachable than hard lock-outs where handy precise things just can't quite be scatted throughout the entire game at all intervals reliably without going utterly insane.
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Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby BlueSalamander » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:08 am

screeg wrote:When I see something done the same way 10,000 time I think it's a cliche.
But the whole fantasy universe is a cliché, with its dwarves, elves, orcs, middle-age technology, magic and swords. The two best weapons in TOEE were swords too, Fragarach and Scather, and they were better than the rest by a long margin. It would be interesting to know how pen-and-paper dungeon masters deal with this. In pen and paper, crafting is not supposed to be easy or frequently available, because it forces the party to wait in a city for a long time doing nothing else.

SilentLion wrote:occasional randomized enchanted weapon drops and/or part of shop selection being randomized would give the "exotic" weapon group users a chance to grab a good weapon
Could be done, but I'd prefer the approach where you present several enchanted weapons to the player and let him have just one.

getter77 wrote:Want a Silver Chain but only a Silver Sword has turned up? Time to pay or Quest along to a meltdown/reforge. Same thing with enchantments.
That's just like crafting, except from another source.
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Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby getter77 » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:00 pm

BlueSalamander wrote:
getter77 wrote:Want a Silver Chain but only a Silver Sword has turned up? Time to pay or Quest along to a meltdown/reforge. Same thing with enchantments.
That's just like crafting, except from another source.



Ah, but unlike the problematic KotC situation, this method necessitates actually discovering/finding/acquiring/encountering that which you want to incorporate into the arsenal, as opposed to just building exp and gold then picking from a list of things not experienced by the party in the slightest more often than not. As such, you can place the loot set pieces and deal with economic realities without much concern for overly forced diversity, as the "discoveries" can then amount to what the players decided to make of them as per their builds----especially depending on what inventory/storage mechanics wind up being present in terms of sell/drop/hold onto for later machinations choices.
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