KotC 2 Update

Here's the place to talk about the features you would like to see in a sequel to KotC.

Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby Simsum » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:00 am

BlueSalamander wrote:
SilentLion wrote:occasional randomized enchanted weapon drops and/or part of shop selection being randomized would give the "exotic" weapon group users a chance to grab a good weapon
Could be done, but I'd prefer the approach where you present several enchanted weapons to the player and let him have just one.


Wouldn't a much better solution be to create a treasure generator that looked up relevant stuff about the party? - Like, if it's a party with a level 6 fighter specialising in halbards & the party doesn't have any magical halbards, spawn a halbard+2. Or something along those lines.
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Re: KotC 2 Update

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Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby Grunker » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:30 pm

Honestly, the best way to go about it is to not have weapon specialization. Weapon specialization is a stupid mechanic which has the sole practical consequence of narrowing down the amount of choice you have.

Ask me, ditch all forms of weapon specialization or at least allow a small amount of money/XP to allow for specialization retraining or some such.

If weapon specialization stays in, I reckon the best way to solve this issue is what the poster above me said.
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Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby Del_Duio » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:56 pm

See now this is where KotC's "crafting on the fly" system actually works though: In other games, say I'd choose to specialize in a two-handed hammer at character creation only to discover 50 hours in that you never get any good two-handed hammers :shock:

At least in KotC you CAN make any type of weapon your characters are proficient with using crafting. Not only that, your personal enchantments can and likely will far exceed those found in the normal campaign. Here, Blue Salamander has found a way around the pitfalls of weapon specialization that usually plagues most games like this.
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Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby Grunker » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:10 pm

The problem with the crafting system in KotC, as has been discussed many times here, is that it removes one of the most central reward-mechanisms of finding interesting, unique and good gear. Not a single item reward in KotC is useful, sadly.

Remove weapon specialization and you remove the problem. It's not an incredibly interesting mechanic to begin with anyway.
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Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby Matt999 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:08 pm

@Grunker

The solution should not be taking whole crafting system away, but making it work in conjunction with exploration and finding powerful items. How about Craft Magic Arms and Armour work differently for special weapons/armours.

For example - you could normally make yourself +2 sword, but never as powerful as the legendary Holy Avanger +3 Broadsword. Moreover, that Avanger +3 upon finding would be but a shadow of its former self - it would be damaged, some power gems missing, some magic faded away. But you can "repair" it if you characters have proper skills and stats as well as resources.

This way you can have your reward from exploring the game, as well as some degree of customisation (e.g. you could change the weapon into Unholy Avanger of Thunder).

Apart from that, why not allow creation of items only in special places. It made no sense to me that my wizards could scribe plenty of scrolls, just like that. Enforce special equipment and circumstances where crafting would be permited.
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Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby Grunker » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:08 pm

When have I suggested removing crafting? :shock:
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Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby BlueSalamander » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:23 pm

Grunker wrote:Honestly, the best way to go about it is to not have weapon specialization. Weapon specialization is a stupid mechanic which has the sole practical consequence of narrowing down the amount of choice you have. Ask me, ditch all forms of weapon specialization or at least allow a small amount of money/XP to allow for specialization retraining or some such.
But weapon specialisation feats represent a big chunk of the Fighter feats. The narrowing down of choice is the reason I came up with the weapon groups. The fighter would have enough feats to specialise in many weapons while the other classes may not need to specialise in weapons at all (even if they specialise they only have access to the simple Weapon Focus). Improved Critical could be changed to a Fighter-only feat (or removed entirely - with Keen weapons it's redundant).

Simsum wrote:if it's a party with a level 6 fighter specialising in halbards & the party doesn't have any magical halbards, spawn a halbard+2.
An interesting idea, but more complicated than just saying 'there you get the Avenger sword'. Do real-life DMs decide the weapon type on the fly according to the needs of the party?
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Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby Del_Duio » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:27 pm

Matt999 wrote:For example - you could normally make yourself +2 sword, but never as powerful as the legendary Holy Avanger +3 Broadsword. Moreover, that Avanger +3 upon finding would be but a shadow of its former self - it would be damaged, some power gems missing, some magic faded away. But you can "repair" it if you characters have proper skills and stats as well as resources.


Not a terrible idea but DUUUUUUDE, The Holy Avenger is a Two Handed Sword +5. Every D&D geek knows that :ugeek:
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Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby Grunker » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:48 pm

BlueSalamander wrote:
Grunker wrote:Honestly, the best way to go about it is to not have weapon specialization. Weapon specialization is a stupid mechanic which has the sole practical consequence of narrowing down the amount of choice you have. Ask me, ditch all forms of weapon specialization or at least allow a small amount of money/XP to allow for specialization retraining or some such.
But weapon specialisation feats represent a big chunk of the Fighter feats. The narrowing down of choice is the reason I came up with the weapon groups. The fighter would have enough feats to specialise in many weapons while the other classes may not need to specialise in weapons at all (even if they specialise they only have access to the simple Weapon Focus). Improved Critical could be changed to a Fighter-only feat (or removed entirely - with Keen weapons it's redundant).

Simsum wrote:if it's a party with a level 6 fighter specialising in halbards & the party doesn't have any magical halbards, spawn a halbard+2.
An interesting idea, but more complicated than just saying 'there you get the Avenger sword'. Do real-life DMs decide the weapon type on the fly according to the needs of the party?


The inclusion of weapon groups is definetely a big plus, but in all honesty it's a way to make a bad mechanic less worse. The better thing, in my mind, is having alternative fighter feats that works. I understand full well that you're working alone on this project and with limited resources, so if that's what's stopping you I won't whince about it :)
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Re: KotC 2 Update

Postby Simsum » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:10 pm

BlueSalamander wrote:But weapon specialisation feats represent a big chunk of the Fighter feats. The narrowing down of choice is the reason I came up with the weapon groups. The fighter would have enough feats to specialise in many weapons while the other classes may not need to specialise in weapons at all (even if they specialise they only have access to the simple Weapon Focus). Improved Critical could be changed to a Fighter-only feat (or removed entirely - with Keen weapons it's redundant).


I'm not with Grunker on the "narrowing = bad" thing. On the contrary, I very much think it's a good idea to allow and reward characters to focus on a particular subset of the things the class can do. Whether it's longswords, lightningbolts or limericks.

But if you go that route, you kind of have to commit to it. Letting characters focus on a subset of their abilities, at the expense of the rest, and then failing to cater challenges to, or reward their focus, that's... Not good GM'ing. If you ask me, your system shouldn't allow things your design doesn't or can't take into account.

An interesting idea, but more complicated than just saying 'there you get the Avenger sword'.


Only if you don't have to hand out a lot of Avenger swords.

If you only have to manually generate 10 unique rewards in the campaign, doing it manually is almost certainly much faster than designing a system that can do the same automatically. But based on KoTC I'm assuming we're talking rather a lot more than 10 times, especially when crafting is out and you're considering the inclusion of a NWN-like custom module builder.

Do real-life DMs decide the weapon type on the fly according to the needs of the party?


No and yes. You can't know in advance if the right reward is an Avenger sword or halbard. All you do know, is that the sword version has a higher chance of not being wrong, and that dropping both sword and halbard will screw up your game economy. So to you it becomes a question of whether you:
  • Want to screw the 20% [number pulled from hat] who don't use swords.
  • Drop both and tank your economy by overloading players with valuable magical items
  • Create a system that can determine whether it should be the sword or the halbard on the fly.

I'm not in the same situation when I design tabletop modules for us. I don't have to cater to a multitude of character & party builds, I only have to design my modules for 1 particular party. And I not only know exactly what that party is, I know the players too. So while I absolutely do design both challenges and rewards specifically for the player characters, I'm never in the situation that the Avenger weapon has to be a sword most of the time and a halbard some of the time. I never have questions with multiple, mutually exclusive, correct answers. Honestly, I don't think I could be bothered to write modules for us if I did. I don't envy you.

The sword or halbard problem is just an example of something much larger, though. I don't mean this as an attack on any game or developer in particular, but take IWD for example. The campaign is excessively challenging for a party of wizards or thieves and, amusingly, nowhere near challenging enough for a party of multiclassed wizard/thieves. And it fails to deliver satisfying rewards to all three.
I completely understand why the IWD campaign can't accommodate those three party builds. I very much doubt I could build a module that provided interesting challenges and rewards to traditional AD&D2ed parties, and to those 3 extremes at the same time.

What I don't understand, is the purpose of giving players options that you can't design interesting modules for. KoTC did a pretty good job of not giving players useless or overly powerful options, but that's an extremely rare thing. Especially in D&D-based/derivative strategy CRPGs. Don't let it go to your head, but as far as I'm aware nobody has done as good a job of it as you did in KoTC. Still... I worry about the class inflation of KoTC2. A lot of bad or boring options is - at least in my opinion - not at all preferable to a few fun ones.
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