Rogue class improvements

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Re: Rogue class improvements

Postby MrLicorice » Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:37 am

Indeed, the Feint feat line is a must-pick for any self respecting rogue.

Since @BlueSalamander is confident that the rogue is now balanced, I must assume that I missed something in my initial assessment. After some more testing, I admit I was wrong... There are paths to push the rogue into competitive territory...

You have to think outside the box. See all those feats that assume you are a dexterity finesse fighter? Ignore them...

Introducing the Samurogue, a polearm wielding whirlwind spamming killing machine. Works with either assassin or swashbuckler. The rogue can play the whirlwind game better than the samurai, due to the ability to walk in the middle of enemy lines without hinderance and without provoking attacks of opportunity. Reach weapons are of course necessary to take maximum advantage of whirlwind (you triple the number of squares you can hit with a whirlwind action when using a reach weapon... I don't know why I am writing this, everyone in this forum has probably figured out the good builds a long time ago).

Your attack bonus is of course nowhere near the Samurai's, so you will need some help from teammates: a bard and a cleric with mysticism domain can both help bring your attack bonus to a point where you are reliably landing criticals with a skewer/vorpal polearm.

Assassin vs. Swashbuckler: The assassin is probably the better choice with access to spells and superior sneak attacks. The swashbuckler has two advantages: full BAB means you free-up your belt slot for something other than "belt of battle skill", and since you are dumping intelligence (since the damage bonus only applies to finesse weapons), you can focus on physical stats and have some leftovers for charisma. Swashbuckler means you are going all in on maximizing attack bonus, at the expense of your sneak attacks and utility.

And if you could find a ring of invisibility, well...

EDIT: After bringing a party with an assassin rogue to the endgame, I admit that rogue does not need further boost as long as things like whirlwind-reach weapons exist. The rogue kill ratio is toe to toe with the fighter and red wizard. Of course, this success has less to do with rogues and more with whirlwind-polearm being top tier. Rogue just happens to make the most out of it, and is now on my auto-include short list.
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Re: Rogue class improvements

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Re: Rogue class improvements

Postby BlueSalamander » Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:07 pm

her spells, which would be predestined to enable such “trickery”, are quite limited in their usefulness as it impossible to remain a relevant melee-class (medium BAB!) and acquire a high spell DC.
Medium Base Attack Bonus is no longer required as you have the Swashbuckler option, with high BAB.

There's a bug right now when you level up a Swashbuckler from level 13 to 14. The fix will be in the coming version 1.46.

Therefore I love the concept of bombs and traps… but special rogue items could do the job too?
Yes, I think so. Special items may be toxins, bombs, Ninja stars, etc.

Another idea to strengthen the rogue-class: allow “Sneak-Attack” damage with short-bows (and slings)!
It's a nice idea, but it would be a bit too complicated.

Introducing the Samurogue, a polearm wielding whirlwind spamming killing machine. Works with either assassin or swashbuckler. The rogue can play the whirlwind game better than the samurai, due to the ability to walk in the middle of enemy lines without hinderance and without provoking attacks of opportunity. Reach weapons are of course necessary to take maximum advantage of whirlwind (you triple the number of squares you can hit with a whirlwind action when using a reach weapon... I don't know why I am writing this, everyone in this forum has probably figured out the good builds a long time ago).
That's an awesome character design idea.

EDIT: After bringing a party with an assassin rogue to the endgame, I admit that rogue does not need further boost as long as things like whirlwind-reach weapons exist. The rogue kill ratio is toe to toe with the fighter and red wizard. Of course, this success has less to do with rogues and more with whirlwind-polearm being top tier. Rogue just happens to make the most out of it, and is now on my auto-include short list.
Definitely a powerful combination.

[Edit] PS. I'm planning to give the Rogue a new feat:

Improved Phasing Weapon: Weapons enchanted with Phasing and Greater Phasing bypass an extra five points of Damage Reduction.

Thank you for all the feedback and suggestions guys! Best regards 8-)
'Say there is a chunk of meat. Pirates will have a banquet and eat it! But heroes will share it with other people. I want all the meat!!' - Luffy in One Piece
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